After two sails with the SunDay Cat, my first Cat Rig experience I understand why there is so much discussion about how to deal with excessive weather helm by adjusting the centerboard up until the helm is balanced. But does the rudder angle require attention? I read it needed to be vertical and not allowed to ride up.. But would it also help if you rotate the rudder to the same angle as the stern and lock it down on that same reverse angle, toward the bow from the vertical position?
What's up Bub?
I have no experience with the SunCats (yet) but I cured the weather helm on my 1985 23 by doing exactly what you propose. I modified the rudder blade and installed a hold down bracket which sets the blade forward of plumb and it made a world of difference. Actually, a bit too much of a world, as I new have a neutral helm, which is not good. This year I'll tweak the mast back a degree to introduce some weather helm back in. Last year, she wandered a bit, took a bit of attention to keep her sailing in a straight line.
There are lots of experienced SunCat guys here who will chime in, no doubt.
Bob23
Thank you. Especially the warning that it's possible to overdo it.
I'm thinking if that happens, the quick cure would be to lower the CB incrementally until the sweet spot is located. Think I'll try that in light/moderate air. But do you think there is any downside to that experiment?
Bub:
No I don't as long as you have a way to reverse the rudder placement a bit. As you know, the 23's have no centerboard so my only recourse is to shift the rig aft a bit or to tilt the rudder blade aft a bit. All in all, this has been a success and has increased the speed of the boat a little....could be my imagination but less friction at the rudder is a good thing.
I should add that I use a custom built wood-sheathed foiled rudder blade which in and of itself, helped the performance greatly. Less rudder stall, seemed to point a bit higher and it looks great, too. I sheathed in a thin Okoume plywood, marine grade and fiberglassed it. It's held up well for 10 years now, give or take. I have some photos somewhere I can email you, can't seem to figure out how to here on the site although I suspect it's quite easy.
Bob23
Thanks. I'll give it a try. I have also seen the discussions about the rudder sheath accessory. I may purchase one after I get more familiar with the current adjustments.
Bub, forgot to ask if you have a foiled rudder blade?
Bob23
No, but I have seen it as an accessory. May try it after a few more shakedown sails with the standard rudder.
Again, it makes a world of difference and all my rudder placement modifications have been using my foiled rudder blade. I can email you photos if you wish.
Bob23
Hi Bob,
Please send me the photos also. I'll be sailing my new Sunday Cat as soon as the weather breaks. Snowed here last night!
Regards,
Mike
Hi, All:
Am following this discussion with interest.
I now own a 2012 SunDayCat which I have sailed for one season.
It has the factory original stainless steel plate rudder.
Am considering replacing it with a foiled rudder, but am undecided.
Reports of the foiled rudder being more effective at slower speeds and larger rudder angles are attractive.
Only boat of similar size with a foiled rudder which I have sailed, is a friend's Precision-18.
Best Regards, Roland
I thought I had read that there is a foil shaped sheathing product that can slide over the rudder, but I'm not sure. Does Hutchins sell such an accessory or is it another vendor?
Pictures would be great.
Hey Bub,
I haven't heard of a pre-made foiled sleeve product, the dimensions of the core would vary from boat to boat, making it problematic for a third party vendor. But that's basically the approach I used to foil the rudder on my PC. Starboard planks encasing the stock rudder. I believe the design is the same on the SC, the dimensions may vary.
The stock rudder is 1/4" thick aluminum, 12" wide. I decided to use a new core rather than modify my rudder, in case I wanted to go back. The new rudder was also to be 12" wide, NACA 0012-12. That shape results in a maximum thickness of 1 1/2", so 3/4" Starboard was perfect. I used a 9" core so the Starboard could extend 1" forward and 2" aft of the core for fastening and shaping the ends.
I roughed out the foil shape with a dado head on a table saw, tilted to follow the foil curve. There was a significant amount of hand shaping to fair the outer surfaces as you'd expect, with hand planes, rasps, files, and sandpaper. The Starboard machines cleanly, the biggest problem with hand tools was the static charge that would build up, and the shavings had to be cleared frequently.The Starboard was relieved 1/8" on the back to receive the core.
I considered several options to fasten the foil to the core. Starboard can be welded, but my tests with what I had on hand for heat sources weren't encouraging. HDPE isn't easy to glue, maybe West Systems G-Flex or a caulk could work, but I decided the I'd go with FH machine screws, countersunk on one face, tapped through the other. I could have used SS, the screws wouldn't contact the core, but I went with nylon. Plenty strong, easily cut off and shaped. Nylon will absorb some moisture, so continued immersion could be an issue, but I dry sail anyway. To fill the countersinks, I melted down some hot melt adhesive rods, stirred in some white pigment, and cast new rods to use in the glue gun. I wasn't really trying to get a perfect match, although it could be done, just get it close. The glue adheres well, is easily parred flush, but can be popped out if you need to dismantle the rudder. After a season, dry sailing, the hot melt fills are fine.
I had previously replaced the uphaul Com-Pac provides with a rod control system for the rudder, which is very effective (last photo). In the second photo you can see I'd left a tab, with the smaller hole, above the top edge of the Starboard where'd I planned on fastening the rod clevis end. The rudder had picked up 7 lbs. in weight with the foil, and that attachment didn't provide the leverage I needed to lift the rudder easily. I did some tests, and even if I attached the rod at the top aft corner of the Starboard itself, the leverage still wasn't right. I chose to add the arm you see in the last two photos, at some increase in turbulence.
Cost for this was basically $50 for the Starboard. The new core was another $50, but I could have cut down my rudder and saved that. A few bucks for fasteners and off cuts that I had on hand. But I enjoy making things, a foiled blade from Rudder Craft for the SC can be had for $375.
Back to your weather helm problem, as long as my rudder is held down firmly, and I haven't failed to reef if overpowered, I haven't had a problem. Besides raising the CB a bit, weather helm can be reduced by shifting weight forward. Easy to do in a nice big cockpit like you have in your Sunday Cat.
Bruce. VERY IMPRESSIVE, but above my pay grade!
Still looks like a useful modification for overall performance if I can locate the Vendor. I am very sure I saw one somewhere and just can't find it.
Please post it if you do find it, sounds very interesting.
Good luck with your weather helm. My experience with weather helm on catboats has been it is more an issue on boats with traditional barn door rudders, and much less so on boats with high aspect rudders like we have. I can recommend Bill Welch's The Competitive Cat: Racing Small Gaff-Rigged Catboats. Plenty of useful tips for experienced sloop sailors about sailing catboats in general, not just racing.
Bruce:
When you made your foiled rudder, how was the bottom edge finished? Was it encased in the Starboard? Was it flat flush with the bottom edge of the core? Because you made a new core, did the overall water depth of the rudder change?
Thanks, Roland
I kept the depth the same, didn't feel a need to change. As you can see, the core is exposed on the lower edge. I considered encasing that too, but I don't have a perfect seal along the fore and aft edges so I knew water would get in there. I considered cutting in some drainage channels in the Starboard, and still could, but so far I don't see any corrosion issues.
Hi Bruce,
Amazing craftsmanship, you are very talented. I'm afraid that may be beyond what I would like to tackle and have looked at the two replacement rudders offered by Rudder Craft, could you please share your insight with us on the pros and cons of each of them:
Com-Pac Sun Cat High Performance Foiled Replacement Rudder Blade ($375)
https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=135
Com-Pac SunCat High Performance Kick Up Rudder Assembly ($599)
https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=136
Bruce:
Thanks for all your comments!
Zephyros:
I too am considering those two Ruddercraft replacements.
But am leaning towards the replacement blade rather than the entire rudder/tiller assembly.
Have asked Ruddercraft for more detail about the blade, and am awaiting their reply.
Regards, Roland
Hi Zephyros,
I have little first-hand experience Rudder Craft products, but I do moderate the Yahoo Picnic Cat Group and several members there have installed the replacement blade (same one as the CP 16) and liked it. Of course they had spent $295, in their case, so they were predisposed to give it good reviews. Made of HDPE, as is Starboard, so should be durable and easily maintained. I did see a post here regarding a bent blade, not sure how that worked out. I see that Rudder Craft does offer a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=11063.0
I don't know of any full rudder assemblies on a PC, but I did run across a guy at the ramp who had an older sloop, about 18', with one. I don't remember much about the boat, although I did note that he was sailing without a motor, credit for that. He said he liked the rudder, performance wise. He did point out the damage that was caused when the rudder dropped to the pavement as he was trailering the boat. Wore away the bottom edge. Since them, he'd been holding it up with a bungee as a back up. I don't know if this was an isolated incident or not, but I'm sure you're checking the reviews.
I can rationalize dropping lots of money on my boat. I'd considered the Rudder Craft blade, but didn't really feel the stock rudder was holding me back. Since I like to DIY, I investigated what it would cost to foil the stock rudder. When I found the Starboard on Ebay for $50, that was sufficient motivation to give it a shot.
Full disclosure, do I think my foiled rudder is an improvement, yes. But I wouldn't say I notice a big difference. I did do it off season, so to be fair I should mount the old rudder for comparison. It would be fun to try it head to head with a Rudder Craft blade, if that ever worked out.
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for your reply and insight. The post by BellaCat is scary to see the Starboard bowing like that, makes me rethink Rudder Craft. It sort of looks like BellaCat's is the taller Kick Up Rudder Assembly. I wonder if the shorter Foiled Replacement Rudder Blade has the Aluminum attachment plate running the full length to strengthen it, my best guess from the photo is no, you only see two rivets and there is a shadow that runs down to a little less than half way.
Roland,
Thanks, I look forward to what you hear from Rudder Craft, maybe you can get to the questions I mention to Bruce when you talk with them.
I'll be interested to hear any feedback from Rudder Craft.
Looking at BellaCat's photo again, the rudder looks fairly thin. It may just be perspective from the camera, but anything less than 1 1/2" seems light, even with a stiffer core. Foils with a cord of 12" typically have 1 1/2" thickness to be effective at the low speeds we're talking.
Zephyros, Bruce:
RudderCraft misread my inquiry.
Although I inquired about their Foiled Replacement Rudder Blade #BladeCPSun,
they replied about their Kick Up Rudder Assembly #KUCPSun.
Note that the Kick Up Assembly appears to use a rudder blade different than the Replacement rudder blade.
I have made a follow-up inquiry, and am awaiting further reply.
Copy of their reply about the Kick Up Rudder Assembly follows:
Thank you for asking about our Unifoil Kick/Up Rudder.
I'll start with dimensions and materials.
The rudder head and gas strut are stainless steel.
The rudder blade is HDPE (High Density Polyethylene),
and the included tiller is laminated white ash and dark mahogany.
The rudder blade for that boat is 1.25" thick, chord 10.5", and overall length of 48"
(roughly 11" in the head, max. draft 37").
The total weight including the tiller is 31 to 32 lbs.
The big advantages are the rudder is shaped to an airfoil shape of NACA 0012,
which provides the maximum lift with minimum drag.
Customers tell us it is like adding power steering to their boat.
The gas strut holds the rudder down while sailing until you hit something,
and then allows the rudder to kick up without damage to anything,
and when you clear the obstacle resets the rudder automatically.
It also holds the rudder blade up (vertically)
when you use the one line uphaul/downhaul system
to lift the rudder for launching/retrieving and trailering the boat.
If I can answer any other questions feel free to write or call 208/375-2204.
Regards, Roland
Thanks, Roland. They confirm they use the NACA 0012 foil, with a chord of 10.5" on the full rudder assembly.
I have a scrap of 3/4" Starboard, 19" x 3", that for yucks I compared earlier in its stiffness to a similar piece of white pine. I supported both at their ends and applied weight at the centers. The Starboard deflected about twice as much as the white pine. Although somewhat flexible, at 1 1/4"+ the Starboard seems suitably stiff IMHO. A stiffer core would help of course, as would the apparent shorter and wider dimensions of the replacement blade.
Bruce, Zephyros:
I got today a little information from Ruddercraft about their replacement SunCat rudder blade #BladeCPSun.
Quoting:
Our blade is designed to fit into your existing head.
The blade is a little different is size as ours has a hydrofoil shape and is sized accordingly.
The blade is 25.25 long, 1.5 inches wide and has a cord of 11.75 inches.
The plate (which attaches to your head) is 11.75 inches high and made from 3/8 alum.
This gives you an overall height of 37 inches.
The overall weight is about 18 to 20 lbs
The 3/8 alum plate is wrapped in a high density plastic (HDPE), which is shaped to provide the hydrofoil.
Note that the hydrodynamic foil shape is different than their kick-up rudder info in my earlier posting.
Longer chord, Thicker maximum width.
Of course, I replied with more questions. I'll keep you updated.
Regards, Roland
PS. Are you aware that there is a lengthy posting on the TSBB about installing a Ruddercraft Com-Pac 16 Kick-up Rudder assembly onto a Com-Pac Legacy?
https://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1471491
Thanks, Roland, good info. I'd go with the replacement blade, but I'm happy with my hold down.
On the other hand, there is this: https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=136
Bruce, Zephyros:
There is a feature of these rudders which I have not yet commented on.
That is their 'balance', meaning where the leading edge is positioned relative to the steering axis of the rudder/tiller.
First, my flat plate SS factory stock rudder is partially balanced.
It has a 'chord' of 12 inches.
Of that 12 inches, approximately 1+1/2 inches is forward of the steering axis,
for a nominal balance of ~12%
Second, the Ruddercraft kick-up rudder is unbalanced.
Its entire blade, when down, is aft of the steering axis.
The leading edge itself is just slightly aft of the steering axis.
This can be seen in the photograph on their website.
(https://store.ruddercraft.com/image/cache/catalog/RCImages/kickup_multiview-750x750.jpg)
Third, I have asked Ruddercraft for more complete dimensional information,
to determine how their replacement blade will be balanced
if/when mounted to my existing rudder head.
(https://store.ruddercraft.com/image/cache/catalog/RCImages/cp19%20latest-500x350.jpg)
Would be pleased if it has similar balance to my factory stock rudder.
Note: Designer Dudley Dix suggests a balance of approximately 15%
in a recent Small Craft Advisor magazine issue #115, page 42.
Regards, Roland
Thank you Roland for bringing Dix's current 3 part series into the discussion, the third part dealing with rake and aspect will appear in the next issue of the SCA, rake ironically being the first issue that Bub questioned. Dix discusses balance in the first part of the series, but states that with a longer tiller a zero balance may be better than the 15% he typically targets. (Note the TSBB post they reference mentions an overly long tiller.) In the second part of the series, where he addresses foils, he isn't clear if or how foiling the rudder effects the balance. I suspect it might, as much as the increased leverage of a longer tiller does.
I elected, in my naivety, to balance my NACA 0012 foiled rudder consistent with Com-Pac's offering. I feel no significant change in the helm, it retains a slight tendency to round up as desired. Nobody, including Ruddercraft, is rigorously testing rudders on the SC platform. It's all rather subjective I'm afraid, and probably the best decision would be based on taking these things for a test drive, if that were in any way possible. It would be fun to compare these things on the water!
Bruce, Zephyros:
Our discussion has drifted away from Bub's initial question into discussion of rudder detail.
I'd like to comment on Bub's initial question since we apparently have the same hull, rudder, and sail.
Bub:
It appears my SunDayCat has the same rudder as your SunDayCat.
Raking the rudder forward will lessen the tiller load on your hand, because it 'balances' the water flow over the rudder. It doesn't greatly effect the tendency of the hull to turn into the source of the wind; in fact it will slightly (probably unnoticeably) aggravate it by moving the center of effort forward relative to the sail.That turning-into-the-wind tendency is determined primarily by the lateral centers of effort of the hull and of the sail. What is commonly done is raising the pivoting-to-the-stern centerboard which moves the lateral center of resistance of the hull aft a bit relative to the sail, reducing the tendency of the boat to 'weathervane' into the wind.
All that being said, I sail my SunCat with the rudder raked forward. The tiller loads onto my hand are reasonable.
It was configured that way by the delivering dealer to the original/prior owner and has not been changed.
I also keep the centerboard slightly raised.
If I wish to heave-to, lowering the centerboard and releasing the helm causes the boat to turn into the wind.
I am considering getting a hydrodynamic foiled rudder, but will experiment a little more first with what I now have.
If you have access to Small Craft Advisor magazine, be sure to reference designer Dudley Dix's 3-part series on rudders: issues Jan/Feb 2019, March/April 2019, and upcoming May/June 2019.
I am looking forward to the upcoming issue which promises to discuss rudder aspect ratio and rudder rake.
Probably will not even consider purchasing an alternate aftermarket rudder until after reading the upcoming article.
You are welcome to reply to me here or directly, if this prompts other questions.
Regards, Roland
Roland, your rudder is raked? Didn't see that one coming. It would be useful to know the details of the modification, and how the helm compares to an unmodified rudder.
Dix is quite clear that fixed design factors effecting helm balance are so interrelated that empirical testing is critical, and made more so by variable factors such as weight distribution, CB position, and wind and sea state. Nothing against raking, but there's no reason the boat couldn't be designed to use a plumb rudder. We haven't heard complaints of excessive weather helm by other SC owners, raked or not.
Bub, if you do rake the rudder, based on Bob's experience, I would strongly suggest that you install a variable stop so the rake could be adjusted over a range, or backed out entirely, once you had a chance to try it.
Bruce,
Yes, my rudder is positioned to be raked forward at the bottom.
The straight portion of the leading edge runs parallel to a line through the canted rudder/tiller steering axis,
and about 1+1/2 inches forward of that axis.
That pivot axis is canted, of course, because the transom is.
The 'chord' of the flat SS plate rudder is 12 inches.
So, ~1+1/2 inches is forward of the axis, and ~10+1/2 inches aft of the axis.
I do not have any mechanism to continuously adjust the amount of rake.
Would like to experiment, so may have to make something.
Haven't really been displeased with the rudder, yet I would like to optimize it.
Regards, Roland
Quote from: Zephyros on February 28, 2019, 09:07:28 AM
Hi Bruce,
Amazing craftsmanship, you are very talented. I'm afraid that may be beyond what I would like to tackle and have looked at the two replacement rudders offered by Rudder Craft, could you please share your insight with us on the pros and cons of each of them:
Com-Pac Sun Cat High Performance Foiled Replacement Rudder Blade ($375)
https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=135
Com-Pac SunCat High Performance Kick Up Rudder Assembly ($599)
https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=136
Just now dipping into this conversation...
My SunCat came with an after market rudder from IdaSailor that looks very much like the ruddercraft assembly. The PO was nervous about sufficient room to swing the tiller within the "slot" made for that in the transom, so had it set up to run the tiller over top of the transom. This was one of the (several) mods that I expected to change back to "stock" but found it comfortable enough seated and clearly advantageous standing, which I like from time to time. And by blocking off the back side I have a little storage area in a really handy spot...
I am pretty sure there were some modifications to the assembly to make it easier to pull up from the cockpit but can't really look until the boat is our from under the tarps. I can't compare it to a stock rudder, but the tiller is a beauty and it seems like a very durable piece of work that functions great.
Regarding helm balance, raked rudder, and reefing ....
I have 2 reefs on both my PC and HC sails. I've sailed my PC with the 2nd reef in many times with winds in the 25 range. The 2nd reef greatly reduces weather helm to the point that it's almost neutral. This is with the CB fully down. I have only used the 2nd reef once on my HC so it's difficult to judge plus there's less feedback with the wheel.
Anyway, the reason I'm saying all this is that with a non-adjustable raked rudder (which Bruce alluded to) and additional reef points one may find themselves with lee rather than weather helm. Just something to keep in mind.
Andre
Excellent comment, Andre.
Yes, reefing the sail, like moving the sail forward by raking the mast forward, will reduce weather helm.
And possibly too much, inducing a lee helm.
Regards, Roland
I did go out last week in 12-15 kts and sailed awhile on all points of sail with the rudder raked forward. Then dropped it to the gravity induced vertical position and repeated the process.
I think the helm felt slightly better raked, but adjusting the weather helm by playing with the CB was more than adequate, easy to modulate incrementally, and safer than hanging off the stern looking away from the heading while loosening the friction bolt.
So I'm going vertical unless some problem arises later in the season..
As an early contributor to this thread, I've been following with interest. This year before launching my 23, I plan to shift the sail plan aft just a tad to introduce some weather helm back in to the boat. A neutral helm is not only dangerous, but annoying too as the boat seems to wander like a drunken sailor on leave! Of course this means disassembling the CDI roller furler to expose the forestay turnbuckle but this should be inspected every few years anyway so no problem.
I also have the option of tweaking the angle of the rudder a bit here and there so if the sail plan shift doesn't work, the rudder blade adjustment will!
Fair winds to you all!! Here in NJ, we're just getting ready to uncover our boats so the excitement is building! Cheers!!
Thanks for the update, Bub. I was never a big fan of tightening the pivot bolt to hold the rudder down either!
Jim, thanks for your input on the Rudder Craft system. It is the same as IdaSailor, name change, I don't recall the details. Interesting that it's mounted so the tiller comes over the coaming. If you get a chance, when you get back to your boat a photo or two would be fun to see. I've heard the "slot" called the horn, don't know of its standing in official boat nomenclature.
+1 to Bob. We're beginning to see signs of spring!
Quote from: bruce on March 13, 2019, 07:00:45 AM
If you get a chance, when you get back to your boat a photo or two would be fun to see. I've heard the "slot" called the horn, don't know of its standing in official boat nomenclature.
I have a few pix from last year that show the tiller position, which if my experience with posting photos remains true to form will appear in a succession of posts...none of these are set up to illustrate the modifications that I think were added to assist in raising the rudder from the cockpit, which I can post later if there is interest. I think the proper nautical term is "slot thingee."
Thanks, Jim. Looks great. With the rudder pivot at this height, it doesn't look like they could have gotten the tiller through the transom. I see your cuddy, very handy.
I for one would be interested in more photos, if you get the chance.
Quote from: bruce on March 13, 2019, 10:28:12 AM
Thanks, Jim. Looks great. With the rudder pivot at this height, it doesn't look like they could have gotten the tiller through the transom. I see your cuddy, very handy.
I for one would be interested in more photos, if you get the chance.
When the original owner ordered the rudder, she had it set up for that height (I do not believe the gudgeons were changed as part of the project). Once the snow melts back (may be some time, considering current depth) I will get some photos that show the rudder more effectively, and illustrate mods made to the lifting system.
In this older CPYOA thread: http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=6997.0
Found a photograph of the IdaSailor/Ruddercraft replacement blade on a CP-19.
RudderCraft has told me that they recommend the same rudder blade for both the SunCats and the CP-19.
Note that the rudder blade's leading edge is forward of the tiller/rudder steering axis, by about 15%.
Note also the comment of the author, skip1930, on the effect of the rake of the rudder upon weather helm.
Re: CP 16 RUDDER Questions
« Reply #6 on: 2013-12-08, 18:45:47 »
The CP-19 is fitted with the 'first' generation of the IdaSalor rudder which is not fitted with any lift rods or hold down 'detents'.
Just loosen the original jam bar that pinches the cast aluminum head onto the rudder and pull up the rudder with a line, and dog the line down.
The rudder even though it sits on bronze shoulder bushings still hangs down below the keel [+6mm] by about a 1/2 inch.
Being tired of pushing the rudder blade back down after the seaweed popped it up there is now a drilled hole and a shear bolt, later just a pin keeping it down.
It is noteworthy that these rudders be pushed 'hard forward' giving a bit of balance feel to the tiller. This rudder's leading edge is under the hull.
skip.
(https://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh299/1930fordroadster/ComPac%2019/DSC00394.jpg)
I have the factory rudder blade on my 2002 Sun Cat. I pin the blade all the way down (slightly forward of vertical) aligning the holes in the rudder head with the hole in the blade. I use a nylon bolt with nylon thumb nut in case I run aground. Weather helm, in my experience, can be almost eliminated with adjustments to the centerboard angle/depth.
Quote from: bruce on March 13, 2019, 10:28:12 AM
Thanks, Jim. Looks great. With the rudder pivot at this height, it doesn't look like they could have gotten the tiller through the transom. I see your cuddy, very handy.
I for one would be interested in more photos, if you get the chance.
A few photos of our after-market Rudder Craft (formerly IdaSailor) now that the covers are off the boat (and nearly ready for this year's first launch). As you can see, the rudder runs a bit forward of the stern but I don't know if it really stays there under way. I will watch for that when out in our first good blow. I know it does not "ride up" very far, if at all. I am pretty sure, given that one of the fairleads is attached with hose clamps, that at least that line for raising the rudder was added by the PO. It does seem to need both lines to fully furl the rudder from the cockpit. You can also see the cover I put on the slot ("horn?") where the tiller would have passed through before this mod. Very handy place to stow stuff for quick retrieval!
Mehitabel remains in the driveway, so if there are images that you would like to see, I can accommodate at least until the weather warms a bit more reliably.
Thanks, Jim.
I see the rudder rakes forward, but that appears to be because they design the deployed blade to be parallel with the pintels. If the you like the performance of the rudder in this position, that's all that matters in my view.
There doesn't seem to be a provision to adjust the rake of the rudder for an application where the transom isn't plumb. I don't know how difficult it would be for them to offer an adjustable stop, or if one could be retrofitted without interfering with the function of their mechanism, but the versatility of the design is compromised without it, IMHO. One could, of course, shim the gudgeons to eliminate the rake. I believe the stock SC is plumb. I can't accept that because Rudder Craft's generic design causes the rudder to rake forward that that is evidence that the rudder should be raked.
I agree that the second line is an add on, the hose clamps may work but they're not very finished. The line is attached to the forward edge of the blade, that will create significant turbulence. Looking at the link Roland provided from Rudder Craft for their full SC assembly, I see extra lines in the first two photos have been added, different from yours and each other. In the first one especially, on the SC with the white hull, it appears to be securing the blade for travel. In the copy, they state that it is a single-line system. The other thing I note is that they say that now can provide the assembly so that it will pass through the horn. In the photos, the gas struts are attached right at the tiller, there is little or no square tube showing above the struts. A tight fit! On other boats (in the video below), at least some square tube is showing, up to a foot in some cases. Yours looks to be 6-8", well within the range Your gas struts are well above the horn, looks like they're using shorter struts on the new option.
https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=136
Looking at a Rudder Craft video, they talk about the technique to raise the blade, and that a continuous pull will not raise the blade fully. This would a be another reason a second line might be added.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1XwXuAll0
Spring has been slow in coming for us as well. Maybe next week.
Thanks, Bruce, for that video link. Once again you have just the right information! I will tinker with the raise/lower technique described, since I was always assuming that a steady pull was the correct way to raise it. It did occur to me to wonder about the need to retrofit something on a rudder pretty clearly meant to be raised and lowered.
True, the hose clamps are less than elegant. My attempts at drilling that surprisingly hard metal framework resulted in a couple broken bits, and I haven't been out to get a "next level" bit. Maybe I will find that the original single line will do the trick and I can simple remove the extra line. It would not be the first modification I have had (or wanted) to reverse...
I think it would be relatively easy to build in a "stop" if one wanted the rudder to settle at a different angle. So far I see no need (plus, I would need another of those "next level" bits to make it happen).
I agree, see if you can get the rudder to come up with the one line. But, I still would consider a safety line for travel, it seems to be a recurring issue.
Stainless can be hard to drill, especially with small diameter bits, and taps, that can bend and snap. A fresh bit, slow speed, moderate pressure, and lube should do it. This link is good overview of better bits, but HSS is fine with good technique. Sharp is the biggest thing, and if you overheat it, it will lose it's edge. No bit is bullet proof.
https://www.grainger.com/know-how/industry/metalworking/kh-which-drill-bit-does-the-job
Just as important than not overheating your bit is not overheating the part in the area you are drilling. Stainless will work harden when hot and once that happens good luck getting a bit through it! Like Bruce said go SLOW speed on the drill with a SHARP bit with oil.
Quote from: bruce on May 15, 2019, 04:41:29 PM
I agree, see if you can get the rudder to come up with the one line. But, I still would consider a safety line for travel, it seems to be a recurring issue.
The video suggests that it may take some practice. Whether it is age (mine or the rudder's) or some small design change that I can't detect from the photos and video, I can't seem to get the rudder to stand all the way up as they show (I will keep practicing...). That said, I can raise it well enough for most purposes, and a little boat hook action will bring it the rest of the way up when necessary. And re-deploying the rudder now works without needing an assist by reaching over the transom. Part of the issue -aside from not knowing some of the technique - was that the pivot bolt was too tight, which did not allow the rudder to swing as freely. Once that was adjusted it became more clear just how the system was designed to work. It appears that the piston is strong enough (and the system designed well enough) that the rudder will not swing up from water pressure while under way and also hold it steady in the upright position. I agree that a bit of extra attention to travel would be prudent, and a simple tether or bungee should be equal to that task.
Bottom line is that the 'extra' line with its graceless installation can be simply removed.
This topic takes me back to my youth sailing beetlecats back in the 1960s. We did just about everything to improve the performance of that little cat boat. (performance? we were only sailing at 4 kts -ha) I can still hear my dad blasting me after I broke 4 masts trying to move the CE forward by shimming the step. We did just about everything from, trailing edge fairing, gybing centerboards, track instead of hoops on the mast (Leo Telesmanick bitched us out on that one), vang installation, and even removing ribs to make the boat lighter (bad idea), side stays/no side stays, polymer application and flow injection while sailing (we used restaurant drying agent, cheaper than the product of the day called Polygo blue), and sail redesign (way past max dimension down low) For me the Suncat sails great, weather helm is not that bad, but we're lucky to have this forum to toss these ideas around. It's all good. Rock on.
To Roland, Bruce and others on this discussion. I'm following all the discussion with much interest. Has anyone gotten more info in the replacement foil as opposed to the all new kick up rudder?
Has anyone installed a replacement foil?
I cannot tell from Ruddercraft if it is necessary to remove the rudder head in order to install the new blade. My SunDay Cat is hanging in a sling and there is no way I can remove the head unless I haul,the boat. But if I only need to drop the old kick up blade, drill one hole in the replacement, and reattach it using the friction bolt it would be great.
Many Thanks
Bub
Hopefully someone here has installed the Ruddercraft blade on a SC and can verify, but those who've installed one on a PC, with a similar rudder head design, just removed the pivot bolt, slid the old blade out, and slipped the new one in. I see they deliver it undrilled so you'll be able to drill the hole where you need it. One PC sailor did report some slight trimming necessary to get the blade to swing properly. Drilling your own pivot hole would take care of that. A bit of a pain maybe, with the boat in the sling, but you'll be sure of the alignment. You can always just mark the hole location and drill the blade off the boat, probably be easier.
https://store.ruddercraft.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=181_29&product_id=135
If you do end up having to remove your rudder head here is a tail of caution from my recent maintenance. I disassembled my rudder to repaint the Head and Grungon as the paint had mostly flaked off. While doing this I discovered the 13 year old assembly stuck as my best guess the previous owner had never regreased the bolts. You can see from my disassembly photos I have a vice grip attached to the bolt head and the bolt stayed secure. I had to use a centerpunch to tap it out, hoping I did not damage the bronze bushings. They did end up with a slight impression from the bolt threads but I think they will be okay when I regease, I could replace them but pressing in new ones does not look like fun.
Thanks Bruce and Zephyros. It appeared that I could do the change out from the cockpit, boat in sling by just removing the pivot bolt but I wanted confirmation. The reason is highlighted by Zephyros warning about the rudder head. My SunDayCat was in pristine shape when I purchased it, with one major exception== the rudder was nearly frozen by corrosion, and it took a good friend of mine with decades of sailing, and maintenannce experience and every imaginable tool in his workshop over two hours to remove the rudder head without damage, while the boat was firmly set on a trailer, in order to clean and lubricate it. I cannot imagine a worse design for releasing the pintle/gudgeon in order to do this maintenance and never wanted to deal with it again. What was Hutchins thinking?
Hi, Bub:
I've been away and missed, until now, your comment addressed to me.
I have not purchased a Ruddercraft replacement blade, as of now. Am still considering it.
Got frustrated gathering information and put it at a lower priority than other ongoing projects.
Yet it is my understanding that it is a slip-in substitution of the rudder blade.
And the pivot hole must be first drilled to match your existing rudder.
A tidbit of information which I learned may be significant to you:
The head of the RudderCraft replacement blade for the Suncat is 3/8" thick.
My factory Com-Pac rudder is only 5/16" thick but the rudder housing has a nominally 3/8" wide slot.
The RudderCraft blade may become a snug fit into the Com-Pac rudder housing.
You may wish to confirm these dimensions as you proceed.
And note my posting above which, referring to an earlier discussion thread, shows the RudderCraft rudder installed on a CP-19.
Ruddercraft uses the same replacement blade for both the SunCat and the CP-19.
I do not know whether or not Com-Pac uses the same rudder head for both the SunCat and the CP-19.
Regards, Roland
Thanks Roland. I have noticed obvious lateral movement on the current blade inside the rudder head. So I assume the 3/8 " wide Ruddercraft would be a better fit. Maybe snug, but not so tight as to fail to kick up I hope. I'll see if the mfg can provide any assurances. I may also contact Hutchins to verify the design size of the slot on my SunDay Cat year model== 2012 ==rudder head, as I cannot get an accurate field measurement from mine as it rests in a sling above the water.
Quote from: Roland of Macatawa on July 07, 2019, 09:48:59 PM
I've been away and missed, until now, your comment addressed to me.
Hi Roland, by chance have you "been away" because you never received any forum notifications? I have not received notifications since June 19th as there seems to be a setting or bug in the forum software that needs attention by the site admin. I've started a help post at this link, please chime in it it has been affecting you as well:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=11497.0
Hi Zephyros, aka Tom:
Until your posts, I wasn't aware of the notify function so had never used it.
Seems like it would be useful, if working. I'll give it a try.
Regards, Roland
Quote from: Roland of Macatawa on July 22, 2019, 07:25:55 PM
Until your posts, I wasn't aware of the notify function so had never used it.
Seems like it would be useful, if working. I'll give it a try.
It is a very useful function, it used to be the only way I would visit the forum, until I realized it was broken and only sending spartic notifications. Once you set it up, please post your experience over on the thread I started about the bug:
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=11497.0
Hey Roland and others.
I've not installed the RudderCraft foil rudder yet due to the difficult position where the boats rests above water in a sling. But I still think I'll do it eventually.
Have you, or others done the hole drilling and install?
And, have any installations been on the SunDay Cat version of the boat?
Many Thanks.
Hello all. I began this discussion months ago and it was helpful. I decided to sail my SunDay Cat for a season and see how it handled in various conditions. I also wanted to hear more from folks who have installed the Rudder Craft foil shape blade about its performance.
I am leaning toward purchasing but would like to know what experience other sailors have had with this product. Any feedback would be very helpful.
Many Thanks!
Come on guys. Bub has already rationalized the purchase, he just wants I little encouragement that this thing is worth it!
Bub, is you boat on the trailer off season, rather than in the sling? Much easier to work on the rudder. It was close to 70 here in RI today, there is hope!
It's in the sling year round. I can have it hauled near here if necessary. And I can maneuver a powerboat under the rudder while making the change. Or hang over the stern.
Update here. I went ahead and ordered the Replacement foiled sleeve to install. It's not installed yet due to poor service either from the Vendor or FedEx or both, so if you order I would caution you to be very vigilant about production and delivery schedules. When I finally get it installed and have a warmer day I'll test drive her and report.
Fair Sailing.
Very exciting! Look forward to your report.
Bub,
Looking forward to hearing more about your purchase of the Ruddercraft foiled rudder blade.
Regards, Roland
OK. After very poor delivery timing my new blade finally arrived. Nice looking product!!
However, there were no instructions or drawings about placement of the hole to be drilled and I could not reach the factory during the time I had scheduled the work. So we drilled it in what seemed to several of us experienced sailors to be the correct spot. Now, the rudder will not drop into the full vertical position but stops at an angle clearly aft-ward of vertical.
I haven?t sailed her yet but assume this will adversely affect performance. Any ideas if that is correct are appreciated. Also any suggestions about how to rebalance the rig while I figure out how to correct the problem are most welcome.
Sorry for your problem, Bub!
Can you take some photos of the installation and what's preventing the rudder from hanging vertical. The aluminum core and HDPE foil can be trimmed with hand tools if needed. I recall a PC owner had to trim the core of the his Ruddercraft rudder a bit where it was hitting the cast rudder head. His blade was predrilled.
I bet this can be fixed easily, i.e. without redrilling the hole.
I'd forgotten there has been an issue with posting photos. I still can't post a jpg or png, but following deisher6's success on posting a pdf photo of his sewing machine I tried that in the Testing forum.
Worked for me! Still limited to 250KB, so watch your size.
Tried to attach photos without success, probably user error!
Anyway, I suspected the problem was caused by the top of the SS blade binding on the inside surface of the rudder head, causing it to stop approx 10 degrees aft of vertical. So I spent another hour or so, dropped the foil enough to allow it to hang vertical, then raised it enough to reattach the bolt. That worked in part. The blade is now in proper alignment, but now it cannot be raised in shallow water, because the binding prevents it swiveling in the opposite direction.
It appears that the original rudder blade was rounded on the top edges to allow it to rotate fully while the replacement was not. Not a smart design and the error was frustrating and totally avoidable.
Hopefully the design of the foil will deliver performance commensurate with the high price and hours of unnecessary extra work.
Thanks, Bub. Sorry they didn't do a better job providing instructions. They know there's issues, so they deliver it undrilled.
Sounds like you can use the old blade to lay out what you need to trim off the new blade to make it work both ways. Line the pivot points up accurately, of course.
When Roland talked with Ruddercraft (see p. 2 of this thread) they confirmed the core is 3/8" aluminum. Much easier to cut than SS, with a jigsaw for example. Or you could use a grinder, watch the heat around the HDPE.
Bub,
Sorry to read about your trouble with the Ruddercraft replacement blade.
Best wishes in getting it remedied.
Regards, Roland
The hole was placed perfectly laying the new blade on top of the original. The issue arose because the profile of the head of the new rudder blade is not identical to the original. There was never any mention that the excess metal would interfere with the rotation of the blade, only the need to drill a new matching hole in the same spot as the original. The head actually needed to be trimmed in two places for it to work. There is no reason RudderCraft could not have performed that work in manufacture, or AT LEAST provide a warning about the inadequate clearance if further trimming was not performed. That failure caused extra expense, and about 4 hours of wasted effort.
You may have changed my mind on a purchase... Thanks!
RudderCraft agreed to a reasonable adjustment for my costs, and the Rudder itself is impressive looking. I have pictures to share with the owner so they will be able to decide how to modify the head, or inform purchasers how to modify onsite.
So my take away is that I would go ahead and decide about the purchase based on the product itself.
Good sailing to all.!
I have not posted in over a year due to Covid and my aversion to sailing alone, in all but the most moderate conditions.
After the trimming of the two problematic edges of the rudder head, the rudder rotated correctly. I sailed her twice in May of 2020. There seemed to be some improvement in lighter air, but honestly, I cannot be certain how much improvement the foiled blade makes, due to limited use so far.
I am anxious to sail much more often this year and will share any observations after more extensive trials in varied conditions. At the least I would hesitate recommending the product unless the vendor modifies the rudder head so that the only field modification is drilling the hole in the proper location on the head.