When we hoist the sail on our SunCat, usually I am at the motor keeping her head-to-wind while my wife raises the sail. We find that she struggles to get the throat raised all the way, it always seems a big effort for her to get the sail up about the last 6 to 8 inches. I'm not sure why (and yes, we do know to raise the gaff horizontally all the way). So I am thinking about adding a small winch on the cabin top to make it easier. (like the simple non-self-tailing #6 Harken that the Horizon Cats have) They are not expensive and it seems like an easy mod. Has anyone else done this or have any opinion pro or con?
By the way, on our boat, with the throat all the way up, the boom doesn't lift up and clear of the gallows until you peak up the sail. Is this how all SunCats work? - Dan
We, too, have a bit of trouble on those last few inches. Our strategy has been, when that happens (pretty much most of the time) the first mate passes the halyard back and I help it up to within a couple inches or better of fully raised. There have been occasions where we lost those few inches in the final snugging of lines and give it another tug on the first tack into the wind. The boom tends to lift off the gallows as the sail is peaked, for us. This is our first year in our first cat so I can't assure you that this is "normal."
If you have not put any dry lube in the sail track or on the slugs, that is another way to make things go a bit easier. There are products specific to this task, but ours is now in the cabin under a tarp so others may want to chime in on that.
Dan,
First thing to check is the sheet, if it's cleated, or under foot or otherwise fouled, it will stop the throat before the luff is tensioned.
Is the extended ring that Com-Pac welded to the throat slide bent to the side? They often are. If so, as the throat approaches the halyard block on the mast the angle the halyard pulls on the throat gooseneck becomes more off axis and the slide can jam. A good friend was experiencing the same problem as you are on his PC (the parts are the same). He pulled harder and harder, and eventually the extended ring broke free from the slide, clearly from metal fatigue. Jim started a good thread in June when sorting out problems that he was having with his throat gooseneck. Several comments described problems similar to yours. The bent extended ring issue is covered more completely there.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=10938.0
If the above doesn't apply, before I sprung for a winch, I'd try increasing the purchase on the throat halyard to 2:1. Just add a block attached to the throat gooseneck and run the halyard back up the mast and tie it off at, or above, the existing block. Twice the purchase should give you a sense if you're going in the right direction, if it doesn't solve the problem.
My sail track was a greasy mess when I bought the boat, I removed the sail, cleaned the track (it takes time, depending how bad, I used strips of cloth, plastic tools and general degreaser cleaner). I purchased all new sail track slugs/slides, and sprayed on SailKote in the entire track.
MCLUBE SailKote High-Performance Dry Lubricant, 8 oz.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/mclube--sailkote-high-performance-dry-lubricant-8-oz--17757741
Goes up pretty easy now, just a little fiddle of the gaff angle and pull up the final pull in a lull, between gusts, and or as you are swinging through while heading into the wind. This takes pressure off the sail and makes it somewhat easier.
FWIW, I can verify that Com-Pac greases the mast track on new boats as Tom describes. Overkill for the plastic slugs, but they may feel the gooseneck slides need the heavier lubricant.
<<<First thing to check is the sheet, if it's cleated, or under foot or otherwise fouled, it will stop the throat before the luff is tensioned.>>>
That reminds me...a couple times for us the downhaul was still cleated, another way to make it tough to fully raise...and it does not take much for the sheet to be an issue, just a twist in the line can hang things up just enough to make things difficult.
Thanks for all the responses and the link to earlier posts on the subject, which I had forgotten. Yes, I have tried McLube. Yes, We make sure the sheet, downhaul, and also the gaff downhaul (installed by the PO) are free. I'd rather not rely on two of us hauling the throat together.... first mate would feel better about being able to do it herself. The boat is all bundled up for the winter, poor thing, but I will inspect the gooseneck hardware for the possible damage that was suggested. If all else fails, I am still going to consider the winch idea. Still happy for any other comments. Dan
I have also experienced the extra resistance on those last few inches of throat halyard. If I first push up the forward end of the boom above the mast hinge, the resistance is much less.
I have figured out how to get the throat halyard all the way up (almost), but still have trouble getting the down haul tight enough to eliminate a scalloped luff on the sail. I have the downhaul line running from an eyestrap to a single block under the boom and down to a turning block and back to the spinlock. So just 2-1 purchase.
Have any of you increased the purchase on the down haul to make this easier, and if so, what block combinations did you use?
Thanks,
Ron
Ron,
I knew that the SC boom downhaul led through a turning block to a Spinlock cleat, but I didn't realize there was a 2:1 purchase. I believe the throat halyard is 1:1. I wouldn't think increasing the purchase of the downhaul further would be required.
The set up on a PC is simpler, and tensioning the luff isn't a problem. We have a horn cleat mounted in the mast track at the base of the mast stub and a line made up to the ring on the bottom of the boom gooseneck slide. Once I set the height I want the boom to rise to I never adjust the downhaul, and use the throat halyard to tension the luff. My throat halyard has been upgraded to 2:1, to match the peak halyard, but I would think 1:1 should be adequate to tension the luff.
Thanks Bruce.
I like the idea of going to a 2:1 on the Throat Halyard. As you've previously said it makes keeping the gaff horizontal easier since you can use equal length pulls on each halyard. Any drawbacks to that system that I'm not thinking about?
Ron
Twice as much line to deal with, and increased friction when dousing the sail. Neither is a big problem for me.
I know many SC owners add a throat downhaul to help bring the luff down with the 1:1 halyard, 2:1 won't help. But, in PC land, I know plenty of owners who complain about the same thing with the stock 1:1, and 2:1 doesn't seem much worse. There isn't a lot of weight up there to drop, which is a good thing of course.
I've done several things to improve dousing the sail. I upgraded the halyard blocks to larger Harkens, Com-Pac used smaller blocks on the PC, don't know what the SC has. I also went to the Spinlock cleats you have. I had a real problem with hockling and the halyards not running freely through the Ronstan cam cleats with wire rope guide that Com-Pac supplied. The rope guides were tight, but I've since learned the hockling was primarily due to my compulsively coiling the halyards into neat coils, rather than figure eights. I was adding twists to the line. The last thing I've done is mount a 1/4" bungee that's made up to a cleat at the base of the mast, and the throat gooseneck slide, that is stretched when the sail is raised. The 2:1 helps there. The throat drops smartly for the first couple of feet when the halyard is released, after that we may have to coax the luff down if it doesn't drop. Not a big problem in our open cockpit. The bungee isn't as good as a dedicated downhaul, but it's automatic and problem free. I disconnect it from time to time, just to see if it's still useful, and it is.
For anyone who doesn't follow my comments about coiling line, check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX4Zr0vdGHE
Thanks Bruce.
I have already added the throat halyard downhaul with a stand up spring mounted block on the mast led back to a cleat in the cockpit, and it's easily the best thing I've added to Nomad. That sail comes down in a hurry now!
thanks for you detailed descriptions and explanations.
Ron
I'm following this discussion with great interest.
With my SunDayCat, I also have difficulty hoisting the sail the last foot or so.
My problem seems to be related to the position of the cheek block.
The uphaul line coming down off of the cheek block is not colinear with the sail groove but offset to starboard.
This makes the line side load the gooseneck into the track when it approaches the cheek block.
The inside of the track is rough over the last six inches or so of raising travel.
Am trying to come up with a clever remedy for this.
For those of you who have changed to a 2:1 throat halyard, what have you done with the existing cheek block?
Have you raised it to accommodate whatever length of turning block is introduced at the gaff gooseneck?
If so, have you introduced a new upstop, since the cheek block previously functioned as both a turning block and an upstop?
I believe an appropriate upstop is necessary to maintain leverage distance from the gaff gooseneck to the peak halyard blocks.
Thanks, Roland
Roland,
That you see scarring on the track is particularly interesting. Is it primarily on the starboard side of the track, the direction of your cheek block offset?
Is the extend ring on your throat gooseneck slide bent to one side or the other, that will cock the slide as well.
You could temporarily mount a swivel block higher on the mast, and run the halyard through that to see if that improved the situation. Photos could be helpful.
On my PC, the throat gooseneck never reaches the cheek block. The luff downhaul limits the upward travel.
Bruce,
Thank you for the photograph of your 2:1 throat halyard configuration.
I notice the 180 degree twist at the uphaul block.
Is that purposeful or accidental?
Seems it would perhaps aid alignment at the expense of friction.
I will be experimenting with an alternate uphaul turning block, other than the factory cheek block.
When next at the boat, I will check relative roughness on two sides of the sail track.
The extend ring on the gooseneck is not bent but laterally aligned with the gooseneck slide.
Or course it is aft of the slide itself which is in the track.
I will probably make the luff downhaul a permanent fixed one, as you have.
Then adjust luff tension with the halyards.
That will free up a block and cleat for use with the lazy jack halyard which I am experimenting with.
Need to raise the sail, on the trailer the next time it is not windy, to determine the exact proper downhaul position.
So that the boom is positioned to be just a little ways off the gallows.
Best Regards, Roland
Remember to lift with the legs. Use the biggest and strongest muscle group. Like lifting a sailboard sail.
No, Roland, the twist was not my doing. I have straightened it out in the past, and overhauled the line, but it has come back at times. If it annoys me enough, I put a non-swiveling block in.
Twist or not, the halyard running from the eye strap to port, to the block, and back to the cheek block will form a centered V. If you think the extended ring on the slide is too far aft, you could bend it forward to be better aligned. A close examination of the scarring could yield some clues.
Bruce,
For your 2:1 purchase throat halyard, how is the turning block on the top side of the gaff gooseneck attached?
How have you kept it all (gooseneck side with extended ring, shackle, and block) compact enough to keep it under the mast while folded down?
Do you have a customized gooseneck configuration?
I'm thinking that if I need to rework my throat halyard I might as well change it to a 2:1 setup while doing so.
Thanks for allowing me to learn from your experience.
Regards, Roland
Originally, with the shackle that came with the Harken 40mm Carbo block I have. Com-Pac set up the 2:1, at my request, before delivery. In the first photo, with the mast down, the block and the extended ring are well below the hinge.
The extended ring having issues on some boats, including mine, I modified my gooseneck in 2015. The slide has been replaced with the same slide used on my boom, and the halyard is attached with a 3/16" soft shackle. No more bent extended ring cocking the slide in the mast track, no more scarring on the gaff. At first, it seemed that the ring on the top would be best, but I soon realized that the the ring would be crushed as the extended ring had been.
I use a short length of Dyneema chafing sleeve to keep the shackle tight to the gooseneck, not so much for chafing. Not sure it's necessary, and chafing hasn't been an issue. I've seen other means of lashing the halyard block to the slide without using a soft shackle.
Thanks, Bruce.
That was very helpful.
Regards, Roland
Interesting conversation. I wonder, however, about the wisdom of having a fixed boom downhaul, so you have to depend on the halyard for luff tension on the SunCat. It can be enough of an effort to just get that big sail sail raised all the way, now you are adding the effort of tensioning the luff, too. And the fixed downhaul would have to be in the precise right spot: too high and the sail won't tension, too low and you won't be able to raise the gaff all the way and then the boom won't clear the gallows, a pretty narrow tolerance. Seems wrong to me, on general principles, to eliminate an element of adjustability. Anyone else have an opinion?
Hey Dan,
Just to be clear, on the PC the boom downhaul isn't fixed, it's made up to a horn cleat on the mast stub track. Dwyer part DH 8410. My downhaul came adjusted from the factory so the boom gooseneck is at the hinge when the sail is raised. I've kept it in that position, although I could adjust it higher or lower if I saw the need.
https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=20&cat1Name=Masts&familyID=35&familyName=DM%2D284+Mast
The downhaul pulls against the throat halyard via the luff, or vice versa. I could raise the throat to some specified height, with the downhaul loose, and then tighten the downhaul. I just find it easier to leave the downhaul set, and tension the luff with my 2:1 throat halyard.
Dan,
I'm satisfied with my system, but I was curious what others who routinely raise their sail with the boom downhaul loose use to determine how high to raise the throat. Com-Pac clearly expects the downhaul to be adjusted frequently on the SC. Unlike the PC, they lead the line so it's handy to the cockpit, and give you a nice cleat Spinlock cleat to use. Roland referred to to the concept of an upstop earlier in this thread.
Before I posted the question here, I thought I'd check prior threads for "tensioning luff." Lots of good content, although the dreaded long pin is often the focus! Here's a couple.
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4729.0
http://cpyoa.geekworkshosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=4160.msg30198#msg30198
It seems that just running the throat up 'til it hits the block is what's done. Not very elegant, but I suppose when the downhaul is set the throat gooseneck is pulled free of the cheek block to some extent. Given the damage that many see to the extend ring on the gooseneck slide from the gaff pinching the mast, I would want the throat to be well clear of the cheek block.
Bruce:
My intent is to raise the throat to the proper location without any downhall tension. Mark the halyard with a permanent black marker where it exits the cleat and use this as my adjustment setting when raising sail. Will keep me from banging into the turning block. I usually make two lines, course and fine adjustment (different colors). Also easy to explain to others in the boat. "Raise the halyard (or line for newbees) until the black line comes through the cleat."
One must occasionally check against line stretch. My experience is this generally occurs about the time the marker line is beginning to fade. I keep 4 different colored permanent markers on-board.
Regards,
Mike
Hi,
I own a PC and an HC, both with original Doyle sails except the PC's had some minor alterations done to remove some bagginess at the gaff. This MAY have shortened the luff and peak by an inch or so. I believe I've described the following here before but not in either of the threads Bruce cited. My throat halyards are both 1:1, i.e. no mechanical advantage and all blocks and lines are original.
For both boats I usually hoist the sails as follows:
Release downhaul and raise boom gooseneck above long pin, then insert pin to support boom prior to departure.
Hoist sail with gaff reasonably horizontal until luff is just snug with maybe slight scalloping. At this point the gooseneck is still resting lightly on the pin or just above.This is pretty easy on PC, tougher on the HC which is why I have the boom supported by the long pin. I found that the friction in the throat halyard combined with weight of the boom made it quite difficult. I don't like using a winch because I'm concerned that I might break something.
I then yank the long pin, and the gooseneck usually settles down close to the level of the mast hinge. I then tweak the halyards and downhaul so the gooseneck is just BELOW the hinge or overlapping it and the luff has proper tension. I know this is different than most, but I think the lower mast stub is stronger than the upper portion of the mast supported by the hinge.
I have no problem with boom clearance although I've seldom used the HC's bimini so not sure about that. Maybe there are some variations in the cut of the sails.
Andre
Quote from: Roland of Macatawa on April 14, 2019, 11:10:40 AM
I will be experimenting with an alternate uphaul turning block, other than the factory cheek block.
When next at the boat, I will check relative roughness on two sides of the sail track.
Hi Roland,
Any update on your "alternate uphaul turning block" ?
Hi Zephyros,
I don't yet have a solution for the throat halyard with which I am fully pleased. Have run into the Laws of Unintended Consequences.
(Also known as the Law of Conservation of Problems. according to my old Engineering Professor / Mentor.)
Have constrained myself to bolt-on trials, in order to be reversible.
Have been bolting-on at the capscrew pin of the lower peak halyard bail near the top of the mast.
The 2:1 trial works nicely, raises without binding up as it did before, but my trial mount interferes with the peak halyard line returning down to the deck.
Am designing a bolt-on bracket that hopefully I can get made by colleagues at the company from which I retired.
They do a lot of stainless steel fabrication (laser cutting, bending, welding) and their scrap would be suitable for me.
I think a suitable custom bracket mount might well solve my interference problem.
My trials have not been inexpensive. I have purchased blocks, mounting tangs, longer line, and miscellaneous stainless steel hardware.
But now, seeing how nicely it could potentially work, the remaining problem has become a challenge to overcome rather than to return to how it was.
My other off-season projects were more successful:
I've added a Tiller Clutch
I've made a new motor mount plate whose height better fits the range of adjustment of my parallelogram linkage motor mount and the outboard which I have.
I've added a halyard to adjust position and tension in my lazy-jack system. It works as intended, but still needs a little tweaking of the length of some lines.
Regards, Roland
Hi Roland,
Thanks for the update and insight, great to hear your making progress. I'd be very interested to see a drawing of your "bolt-on bracket", if you have one you don't mind sharing, and of course photos when it is completed. I'm also a retired engineer so I tinker, design and fab as needed, my winter to do list has dragged out and I'm hoping to relaunch this month.
Please tell us more about your "parallelogram linkage motor mount", an aptly named device. I assume this is an interlink between the rudder and outboard, do you have any photos?
Roland,
That twist in my throat halyard got the best of me so, I replaced the swivel block with a fixed block. Got out this morning to test it.
I'm glad to hear that Michigan opened the ramps. It's the same here, the state ramps are great, the municipal ramps, not so much.
Bruce,
This time last season, I replaced all three full-swivel blocks on my 3:1 Peak Halyard with fixed blocks because the line was prone to winding up.
Initially, I only replaced the one on the gaff spar because that was where the windup, and the resulting binding up, was occurring.
But replacing only it just chased the problem to another, so I replaced all three.
I used the Harken Carbo 40mm Fixed block:
https://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4645&taxid=417
I'm glad I did.
Now the shackles of the fixed blocks give enough freedom to let the halyard self-align but prevent the full rotational twist up.
Simply trying to work all the twist out of the line first had been insufficient to eliminate the wind up.
Regards, Roland
Yup, that's why I did it. Good luck sorting out your remaining issues.