Com-Pac Yacht Owners Association

Greetings!  I just joined the group today.

I am about to send a deposit to the Hutchins Co. for a brand new Com-Pac 23 Diesel, and I would some advice about what options or modifications you would choose if you were buying your own brand new 23D.  This is fantasy, so don't worry about the cost.  I'll worry about that!

I sail on a small lake in Ohio, 5 miles long by 1.5 miles wide.  I am planning to keep the boat on a dock there most of the time, then trailer the boat for trips to Lake Erie or the Chesapeake 2-3 times per year.  I have sailed a Flying Scot for 10+ years, and chartered a dozen times in the Caribbean.  I don't race, but my biggest stumbling block to choosing the Com-Pac 23 was its light wind and pointing (dis)ability.  I enjoy playing around with sail trim and learning.  I'm interested in anything that will help with the light wind and pointing ability of the 23.

In addition to the list of standard equipment, here are the options that I am planning:

Custom Hull Color - Navy Blue
Transom boarding ladder
Halyard winch
Bulkhead mounted compass
Sunbrella fabric cushion in lieu of vinyl
Privacy curtain
Genoa 155% hank-on with Genoa sheets, tracks, cars
Sail cover
Hatch screen
Teak cockpit grate
12V outlets (I added a total of 5, since I am planning to use them for a handheld GPS/chartplotter, handheld VHF, and two fans, and a refrigerator)
Custom trailer, galvanized, tandom axle, spare tire
PVC trailer guides
Epoxy coat anti-fouling
Bimini top
Cockpit cushions 2" PVC foam
Removable cockpit table
Midship cleat
Sheet winches - Harken #8
Sternrail, Lifelines, stanchions
Mid-hull Rubstrake
Raymarine i40 Bidata (speed/depth)
Wavefront tiller clutch
Power Pack - Yanmar 2YM15, 2 cyl diesel
Mast raising system
2 Marine batteries
Racor fuel-water separator
Electric, automatic bilge pump


Here is the list of options that I am DECLINING:

Roller furling headsail system
30 amp shore power service
12 amp battery charger (I figured the diesel alternator would charge the batteries)
Cradle
Marine Head with holding tank (removing the holding tank allows me to double the fresh water tank)
Pedestal steering
Pedestal mount compass
Upgraded motor bracket
Raymarine ST1000 tiller pilot
Windlass


Here is the list of additional "custom" items I am planning:

C-Head Shorty composting head
25 pound Manson Supreme with 40' of 1/4" chain
7 pound Danforth
SEMCO Honeytone to all exterior teak (to be reapplied twice a year)
Dometic CF 25 refrigerator
20 gallon water tank (the standard is 10 gallons)
Additional long piece of teak on the coaming under the jib winches
LED lights to replace the incandescents
Marinco 4" stainless solar vent to replace dorade
2 Caframo Sirocco II fans




Here is a list of questions yet to be answered:

1. Am I foolish to not have a power windlass since I will have a diesel to power it? 

2. I would like to have better sail control.  Would you recommend a Garhauer rigid boom vang or maybe a Seoladair Boomkicker?  Would you have a Cunningham added?  Do you have a traveler?  Can you PLEASE post pictures if you do?

3. I sail in light winds frequently.  I am planning to get a 170% drifter of 1.5 oz nylon (approx. 200 sq ft of sail area).  I also looked at tri-radial main and headsails sails from Hyde.  Mack can custom make them also. I am going to wait on that, but what are your thoughts?

4. Should I have Hutchins go ahead and install pad-eyes for a drifter?  They didn't seem to have done that before.  I did read a post that recommended placing them in the "back corner of the deck behind the deak cleats".  Does this mean behind the aft mooring cleats? Where EXACTLY would you put them?  If you have pad-eyes for a drifter and have pictures, PLEASE post them.

5. Which handheld VHF and handheld GPS chart plotter would you get?  I figured that since I'll only need a GPS chart plotter when I am trailering the boat to bigger water 2-3 times per year, that a permanent mounted GPS would be silly.  Make sense?

6. Am I foolish to forgo roller furling?  I want maximum light wind performance, so I figured hanked on would be the way to go.

7. I normally store my Flying Scot under a cover.  Should I get one for the 23?

8. Should I have an emergency tiller?  What other safety equipment would you get, besides PFDs, horn, distress flag, fire extinguisher?


Thank you so much for your help.
I'll post this to the Facebook group as well as the website/forum, since I don't know if members read both.

For handheld  I love my Standard  Horizon  870.  It floats, has weather, and distress signal for sending your ID  and GPS coordinates to coasties.  It is rechargable.

For handheld gps  Garmin 78sc which includes coastal charts and compass.  I also installed  a Dragonfly  small chartplotter which gives bottom scan picture  and provides gps redundency.  I mounted this on a ram mount inside companionway  so I can swing it inside when  not in use.

Thanks for the ideas, PJ.  Do you have an opinion about a rigid vang or a traveler?  Have you made any modifications to your boat that you would want on a new boat?  Any other thoughts about my questions?

Zapple,

I depend heavily on my tiller pilot, so you may wish to reconsider that. Compare the Engle fridge to the Dometic. I believe the Engle uses about half the amperage. I have a 50 watt solar panel on the stern port side rail which keeps the batteries up and provides most of the power needs when sailing.

Ditto on the tiller pilot, one of the best things I've added.  I would forego the factory mast raising system if it is the trailer mounted unit.  Heavy, unwieldy and you might find as I did, raising the mast on the water is easier. I had one and got rid of it.  There are a number of inexpensive systems that are far better.  Can't speak to the drifter, but I use blocks with dynema  loops (climbing) that slip through the aft cleat eye like a a mooring line loop does and they work great for my spinnaker sheet lead blocks.  If you single hand a lot, you will miss the roller furling.  Personally don't think a traveler will bring much to the party unless you have them custom mid boom sheeting, but a vang of some type is essential.  I have a two block 4:1 vang that does fine, don't have experience with the rigid type. Your thoughts on the GPS are accurate, I just trailer occasionally to new areas and although I installed a ram mounted unit, a hand held would have done the trick.  Not much you can do to make it point better, the mod for old boats is replacing the flat blade rudder but your new on will come with a foiled unit.  You should look at my lift handle mod. Hutchins probably won't do it, but you will find out you need to or you will have a constant problem with unwanted kickups.

Your first item listed is what I'll comment on.

Our Eclipse is a dark blue exterior.  It is absolutely beautiful.  BUT, two things caused me pause.  Our boat came to us used, and it had been slipped where the starboard side received a lot of dock rash.  Then, the first time we went out, big winds came up, we had a furler issue, so we had to come in fast.  The only slip in this small lake was for the lake's pontoon boat (it was out for winter).  We scraped the starboard side against some exposed ends of 2x12 decking.  More scratches.

Everywhere the blue was either dock rashed, or deep scratches in our docking, our bright blue became exposed WHITE.  A white exterior, when scratch, wouldn't show nearly as much. 

Just my two cents.

Ron

The item that stands out for me is the roller furling, it makes handling the boat so much easier and safer especially if you are single handing. Id suggest having all the running rigging routed to the cockpit. Considering that you're planning some trips to the Chesapeake it's possible that you may see some conditions where leaving the cockpit is sketchy. Lance

Quote from: H2operator on August 24, 2018, 09:44:51 AM
The item that stands out for me is the roller furling, it makes handling the boat so much easier and safer especially if you are single handing. Id suggest having all the running rigging routed to the cockpit. Considering that you're planning some trips to the Chesapeake it's possible that you may see some conditions where leaving the cockpit is sketchy. Lance

I second that. I almost went overboard trying to get the jib down during a bad storm out in the Chesapeake. Also, it didn't help I was wearing flip flops.

A tiller pilot helps out a lot. I went with the ST-2000+

I ordered a 4 inch Marinco stainless steel night/day solar vent to replace the factory vent, and IMO found it to be way too big for the foredeck, so I'm waiting for the 3 inch vent and send the other one back.

Gus

PS: for light winds can't go wrong with a drifter. I've been carrying one around 3 sailboats so far.

I had a boomkicker on my 23 and liked it better than a topping lift. I had a clip that hung down from the back stay, so when I wasn't sailing I could attach the boom to the clip.

I'm more of a set-and-forget sail handler, so I can't comment on how to get the most out of the 23 with that respect.

If it were me I would do roller furling, and run all the lines to the cockpit. Your list has a halyard winch but it doesn't say whether that is mounted on the mast or the cabin roof. Obviously if you run everything back to the cockpit, you want that on the cabin.

I would get the ST1000. I even installed one on my CP16. To me, there is nothing better than setting that thing to auto with plenty of open water in front of me, then sitting back and enjoying the ride. It also helps a lot in getting sails up/down if you single-hand or your crew mates are more passenger than crew.

I think my CP23 had an 11kg claw and 25' of chain and it was no problem to haul up without a windlass. I would skip that.

You might consider a manual bilge pump too. If you're going on big water, PLBs are getting cheap, down around $200 now. Auto-inflate life jackets with a PLB attached is cheap insurance.

On your 20 gallons of fresh water, consider boat balance. I don't know where all the tanks/batteries/storage are located on the newer CP23D, but think about the weight distribution with various tanks at different levels of full.

On my current Dolphin 24 I skipped the typical shore-power and charger too and with 50w of solar to keep everything charged up. I image you won't be using much power with LEDs and some hand-held devices, but if you're setting the boat up to sail in even the lightest winds, and the lake is only 5 miles long, you aren't going to be spending much time running that diesel either so I wouldn't count on that as your only charging device. A small 25w panel would probably keep things topped off if you're only using it a few days a week.

I didn't see anchor light on the list, not sure if that is a standard item or not, as well as a windex.

Roller furling for sure. Will never own a sailboat without it. Also, running lines to the cockpit a must for single handing. Either have installed or DIY single line reefing for your main, again for single handing.

Hello fellow Ohio sailor. 

Wow--you asked a ton of questions at once!  Sounds like you've making lists and checking them twice.  Bob is going to double his usual $5,000 clam new member fee with all the questions. Make that triple, you're from Ohio, i want my cut too!

All jokes aside, you might want to search here on some of the items you mentioned as many things have been discussed at length.  This site has gone back over 10 years with a lot of knowledge contained.

I too am on a 5 mile lake in Ohio and sail a 19.  It's outfitted well, but obviously is not a 23 diesel.  And I don't sail Lake Erie, but understand what it would take to do so, although I can't say I would take my 19 up there as I've been scared poopless in a 45ft power cruiser, let alone a 19' keelboat!

That's quite a list and sounds like you want to outfit it well.  Just be careful not to overdo it...you might think you need something, but don't really need it, or may end up being a negative.   Such as the cockpit grate.  It will just add aft weight (which you want to minimize to reduce dragging the stern), reduce knee bend angle and be another varnish maintenance item. Sure, they look great now, but long term perhaps not.  Only you can decide that I guess. 

-Furler--Get one for sure.  The little extra trouble raising the mast with one exists, but you'll soon love having it.

-30A shore power--definitely get that too if you'l be up at Lake Erie.  You'll want to recharge batteries and have the ability to run tools, fans, blenders, etc. I think you'll regret not having that installed as it will be a pain to do it later on.

-Cockpit crate and teak trim--it's just going to add weight and maintenance and will soon look beat up, IMO.  I think you should skip it.

-That manson anchor sounds heavy, but I don't know what the right weight is for your boat with that anchor in lake erie.  But, the danforth seems to light.  I used to use a 9lb on my 19 and would drag it.  I use a 11lb bruce style now and it holds better well, albeit I've only done so for a few hours at a time.

-Autopilot...absolutely if you think you'll be traveling longer distances, say over the Middle Bass or Kelleys.

-Tiller clutch.  Best thing since sliced bread.  Must have item.

- Light air drifter.  I have one and spent a ton of effort making sure I had the right sail size and cut,  the right fittings, the right mounting location of the turning blocks, etc.   It took some diagraming and manual fitting as there wasn't a setup to copy, and every sail is sized and cut differently when you're talking about custom drifters.    You may have to actually install it to see where the right turning block location should be. That's a very critical point, and you can access that area along the coaming or on the rail later on.  Mine are mounted on clamps on the lower aft rail, then ran back to the genoa blocks. But hard knowing where yours will end up.  My drifter is a 1.5oz nylon 170%, "flying" (ie rope luff that is not on the furler or forestay), and the luff is inside the foretriangle, so I can tack it like a normal genoa.  So you have to mount the head and foot inside and the sheet angle at the tack will define the turning block point.  It might be tough for the factory to get this right without a known configuration.    I would suggest a 160% instead, it will shape more easily in super light air and help to not overpower near the top of the range of use.   Plus it will be very hard to see around such a large sail.
If you want to check mine out near Columbus to see what you are getting yourself into, let me know.

-Boom vang--definitely get one.  I like a 4:1 purchase block/cam cleat setup with snap shackles so I can remove it faster for trailering.  Never used a hard vang, but I'm not sure I would want one.  Having it adjustable and releasable easily (to raise the boom up at the dock/mooring, and for light or strong winds) is nice.  And I use the tail end of the line as a preventer tied to a shroud.  So it serves many purposes.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.  It will be fun to follow your build and adventures.

Wow!  Lots of great advice!  I also received lots of response from the Facebook page.

I skimmed almost the entire website/forum before I made my first post, so many of the ideas I mentioned, including the traveler, were borrowed from other members' posts.  The forum is an excellent resource.

I was particularly interested in the unanimity of enthusiasm for a furling headsail.  I figured that I would get much better performance with a hanked-on sail and it would be much easier to change the jib for genoa if they were hanked on, but the ease of single-handed sailing and safety with furling is a worthwhile consideration.  I am used to hanking-on my Flying Scot headsail while bouncing up and down on the foredeck, but doing that on Lake Erie in a blow would be another matter.  I assume that most sailors with a furling sail have a large genoa, and just roll out what they need, rather than switching headsails (and probably never switch out their headsail).  What size would you recommend?  The choices from Hutchins are jib versus 135% genoa.  The 155% is available hanked-on, but not furling.  I assume everyone would recommend the 135% genoa as the favorite furled headsail, correct?

I was also surprised a bit by the lack of enthusiasm for a traveler, and the uniform enthusiasm for a boom vang.  The rigid boom vang would be an easy modification and would allow me to eliminate the topping lift.  The traveler would not be an easy modification and given the advice you've given, I'll focus my attention on the vang and a cunningham.  I've contacted Boomkicker and I'm awaiting their response.

Here's my latest summary of things to add to my list (and I'll discard my plan for a traveler for now):

Boomkicker with boom vang (but make sure you can lift the boom high enough to adjust the Bimini)
Cunningham
Shore power and battery charger
Solar panel for battery charging
All lines led aft
Furling system with 135% genoa in lieu of jib
Remove halyard winch (will foul jib sheets)
Raymarine i50 Tridata with depth, speed, and log
Standard HX870 floating VHF radio
Garmin 78sc handheld GPS chart plotter
Ask Com-Pac if the system includes a battery monitor
Rings for clipping a harness
Consider Engel MT27F-U1 instead of Dometic (make sure it fits)
Raymarine ST1000 or 2000 tiller pilot
Switch to 3 inch Marinco vent
Manual bilge pump

Thanks so much for the constructive comments!

To CaptRonR and Salty19,
The blue hull and lots of wood are non-negotiable for me.  I know you are giving good practical advice, but those two items are what make the 23 look beautiful to my eye.  I am planning to finish all of the exterior teak with SEMCO twice a year.  I think that will limit the amount of work involved, and still maintain the honey colored warmth of the wood.  My Flying Scot has a blue hull and still looks sharp 12 years later.

Salty19,
Did you mean to suggest that I get BOTH the tiller clutch AND the Raymarine Tiller ST1000 tiller pilot?  That seems redundant.

I understand about the color and the wood.  Our hull is a mint green--"mint blue" in the right light, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.  But after 12 or so years of maintaining teak, I'm replacing as much of it as I can over time.

The tiller clutch and tiller pilot are not as redundant as you think.  If you need to hold the tiller straight for minute or two--say to raise the main, or to tack across the small section your small lake, you're not going to want to go to the trouble of setting the tiller pilot too often.

The tiller clutch engages in fractions of a second and is extremely simple to use.

On the other hand, long tacks on Lake Erie would find it handy to engage the pilot. 

Also the pilot uses power--a lot of it if the wind picks up and the weather helm becomes heavy.  Having a simple mechanism that uses no power and sets in a snap will come in handy.  I use mine ALL THE TIME.  Some other benefits---it hold the tiller steady at rest at the dock.  It holds it when you heave to.  And any crew you may have onboard will find it simple and intuitive to operate.

As for performance of the furler vs hank on--I think it's pretty minor on displacement hulls.  Matching the right headsail  and overall trim to the conditions will give you plenty of performance. She won't get any faster than a certain speed.  And in light wind the drifter will really make it come alive.   These aren't racing boats--don't worry about the performance difference.

The CDI type is what Hutchins provides.  I prefer my Harken 00AL model as it's much sturdier, better quality and above all, it's easy to swap headsails on it.  The CDI is a PITA to change headsails, which means you won't do it when you need to.

Also you do not have to buy everything from Hutchins.  I use National Sails for all 4 sails...great quality at a great price,and they will do whatever you want.  Also consider a loose footed, fully battened main.  Do some searching on loose foot and full batten to read more about them.

Actually, get the ST2000 for a few dollars more. Have used a ST1000 for many years on many boats and when I got the ST2000 for my pilot house I was quite pleasantly surprised at how much better it behaved. Since I steer from the inside wheel, I got a remote control fro Madmen Electronics. It saves me having to move to the cockpit every time I need a course correction, but if you steer by the tiller and spend your time underway in the cockpit then it wouldn't serve as much purpose.

I second the suggestion to get your sails from National Sails, and agree that a full batten loose footed main will allow much better sail shape control. Of course you will need something to control leech tension, whether it be a kicker or traditional vang. I like the simplicity of a basic sail plan with 110 jib on a furler and a cruising spinnaker or what is often called a Gennaker for light air. A cruising spinnaker will hold the air better down wind than a bent on head sail like a 150. A big headsail will need earlier reefing and most don't hold shape very well on a furler. Often times when the wind is up you can reef the main and keep a full 110 for a well balanced boat. Big sails I have found to make the boat squirrely in heavy gusty conditions. I also have found the 110 to go to weather better than a big headsail. Especially if the majority of your sailing is done on a lake, you don't want run out of lake too fast anyway. But each to his own, and fortunately we have all the choices.

I agree with the ST-2000+, since money isn't a problem, might as well go with it. I'd try to get the boat builder to install all the wiring for me if they have that option.

Also, I'd go with the perched transom seats. I used to sit on top of my transom rail while sailing, and I love it.

There's plenty of teak inside the boat to take care of. I never had a boat with so much teak inside, and I get the idea of constantly sanding and varnishing might get a bit old too quick.

There's plenty of teak inside the boat to take care of. I never had a boat with so much teak inside, and I get the idea of constantly sanding and varnishing might get a bit old too quick.

LOL, my 2005 23IV had all the teak finished, inside and out, with Waterlox Original when it was new.  The interior teak has never been touched since then and still looks brand new. On the other hand, the exterior has been through the full gambit of options including Bristol three times, left natural with oil, Semco (I didn't like the look, might as well have plasteak) and Petit Sea Gold.  So four different finish schedules, and my conclusion is the sun wins every time.

Here is my latest list of questions for Gerry Hutchins at Com-Pac.  Thanks again for the help!

1.  Can Mack Sails make a drifter for me?  Other owners have used a 170% drifter of 1.5 ounce nylon.  If Mack Sails can design and make it, then they should be able to give you advice about placement of pad-eyes for that.

2. I have changed my mind about roller furling.  Most owners felt that the roller furling was a must, especially if single handing in shifting weather.   I spoke with an owner who replaced his CDI unit with a Harken unit and he is much happier with that.  He said it is much easier to change out the headsail with the Harken unit.  The unit is Harken 00AL.  Can you include the Harken unit in the quote?

3. I have also changed my mind about the performance sails from Mack Sails.  I would like to include those in the quote after all.  Your email about the sails confused me a little, though.  I believe the current quote is for a roller furling radial cut performance 150% genoa and main.  And the main is loose footed?  Is that correct?  I will want Radial Dacron, not a laminate material.  I will also want a cringle for a cunningham.  Please delete the hanked-on 155% from the quote.  I have heard from some owners that they have more success with a 110% than a 150% in most conditions, then switch to the 170% drifter in light air.  Can you ask Mack Sails for their opinion which would make sense as my "workhorse" headsail on a lake?  Would a 110% jib plus a 170% drifter be the correct combination for me?

4. I would like to include the tiller clutch.

5. Can you recommend a solar panel to keep the batteries topped up?  What location works best?  The companionway top?

5. Please remove the halyard winch from the quote.  I assume that this is located on the mast and I am worried that I will foul the jib sheets.

6. I would like a quote for the Raymarine Axiom 7 chart plotter permanently flush mounted next to the Raymarine i50.

7.  Does the system include a battery power monitor/voltmeter?

8. I would like a flag holder for a US flag ensign at the stern.

9. I would like to switch to the 3 inch Marinco vent.  I spoke with someone who bought the 4 inch and decided it was much too large for the boat, and he returned it for the 3 inch.

10. The quote includes LED dome lights.  I would like for ALL of the lights (nav lights, steaming light, etc) to be LED.  Given the announcement from the US Coast Guard recently, can you make sure that the LED lights will not interfere with the VHF?
http://www.solidstatelighting.net/u-s-coast-guard-warns-of-potential-communication-interference-caused-by-led-lighting/

11. I believe the diesel is located under the companionway where most people put their fridge.  Where is the best place to put a fridge on the 23 Diesel?  Can you recommend a specific model?

12.  I have changed my mind about the shore power and battery charger.  I would like to include those in the quote.

13.  I have decided to forgo any modifications for a traveler or rigid vang.  After speaking with several owners, it sounds like too much hassle for minimal gain, and I think the performance sails will give me much more improvement than a traveler/rigid vang combo.  I do want a regular vang and cunningham. Please include that in the quote.   Here are the Harken part numbers from their website:

4:1 Fiddle
The basic 4:1 fiddle block vang is commonly used on dinghies and small keelboats.
2655   
2658   

4:1 Cascaded Cunningham
This simple 4:1 system leads aft to the cockpit. A favorite on small keelboats and daysailers.
2146
349
350
470

I've really learned a lot asking other owners my questions, and it is always easier to change the boat on paper than to change it once it is built, so I really appreciated the help from the members of the Owner's Association.

1. I've had sails made by Mack, and they are a very good group to deal with. They also have a rigging shop so would be knowledgeable about the appropriate rigging.  However, I believe Dirk at National sails has the depth of knowledge and experience to provide the same quality system, and at a lower price. If it matters to you, Mack makes their sails in Stuart Fla. as opposed to National Sails (which is an arm of Rolly Tasker - Australia) which are built in the Tasker sail loft in Vietnam. I purchased sails for my Corsair 24 trimaran from Mack, but am very happy with the sails for my Com-Pacs from National Sails. Either shop will make sails to your specification. I have found the best combination of sails for cruising is a basic 110 and good main along with a down wind sail of Nylon. A more recent development for spinnakers are specialty furlers, but I would think their application is best suited to boats that use a extended sprit so as to avoid fowling the head stay. I have been using a Shaw Chute Scoop since my early days and have had no problem. I think one thing you should consider is whether or not you would be leaving the cockpit for sail handling, but when you are flying your spinnaker the wind is light and you are sailing off the wind so there shouldn't be heavy motion on deck.

5. I have a 50 watt panel on my stern rail. It is more than adequate to keep the batteries up during idle periods, a 20 watt should be more than enough for that purpose and you could use one of those flexible jobs that could be left in a non-shaded area and put away when underway. Relating as well to your number 11, I use a Engel 35 quart refrigerator and stow it under the V-berth. It fits perfectly but I am not sure if the configuration of the V-berth is the same on the standard model 23. I have a group 31 Master Volt as house battery and my system of maintaining is simple enough, during the day while sailing the solar handles most of the load including the fridge. At the end of the day when reverting to motor I turn the fridge all the way to freeze to drop the temperature. Over night I turn the fridge off to conserve power but also because the filler cushion is in place and blocks airflow to the refrigerator unit, not to mention having the fridge cycle right under your ear while sleeping. In the morning I do the same running the fridge low while motoring to give it a head start for the day. This practice has served me well , and I've never lost any perishables. I use the built in cooler for the beer and ice. A couple of gallon jugs of frozen water at the bottom will help keep the ice and provide extra potable water when thawed. Again however I'm not sure how the cooler configuration of my boat compares to the standard model.

9. I am confused about the response you received in regard to the size of the deck vent. I installed the Marinco 4" on my fore deck, which required making the hole slightly larger. I purchased a second 3" for the head because of the limited space on the cabin top, but returned it when I discovered the cover for the 3" and 4" are the same size. So if cover size is an issue then there would be no advantage to the 3" model. If mounting hole size is the issue then Hutchins can easily provide the proper size hole. The 4" has been fine on the fore deck.

P.S. IMHO I agree with the comments about hull color. The gelcoat colors are nice but having had experience with several - never again. Not only are scratches quite visible, but the dulling (oxidation) is a constant battle unless your hull is protected from the sun most of the time. White dulls as well, but since the oxidation is white then it's not so apparent. If I were to have a colored hull, I'd have it painted, which most builders will not do. It is far more expensive from a production standpoint than adding pigment to the gel which is part of the molding process. Today's marine paints are very resistant to the effects of ultraviolet light and look great year after year with no polishing or buffing, but having a boat professionally painted is quite expensive.

I agree fully with the last comment about hull color. I bought a brand new Horizon Cat and she looked gorgeous with the Navy Blue gelcoat.
We live in a high UV area and after only 3 years it was a constant round of machine buffing with 3M Finesse-It to bring back the faded and chalky gelcoat ,despite having used waxes with UV filtration. Now at 4 years plus the only way out is to spray paint the hull.

In hindsight I should have had her painted from new. It's easy and quick to do before all the fittings go on. I would use a good quality automotive system like Glasurit but still Navy Blue. Think of all the stuff cars have to endure and you don't see them fading these days.

I should have known better really. About 30 years ago I bought a brand new Tayana 37 in black gelcoat. She looked fantastic with the shiny black hull. But only 4 years on the hull was so chalky that I had her resprayed in black with the Glasurit auto paint. I kept the boat another 11 years and she still looked great, no sign of fading, when I sold her. I still see the boat around, and even now the paint looks good.

Regarding the other stuff, I would say go easy with accessories where you can. A light boat is a fast boat.

One last item of note if you plan to handle the sails from the cockpit. I installed a Tides Marine Strong Track. It was easy and the slides required no modification to install to the existing web loops. If you are going with full battens then the sail maker should install the batten end slides for you (makes a case for having your sails made by Mack). I have a lightweight line secured to the top slide and routed to the cockpit. The retriever line makes it super simple to bring the main completely down and secured. If you have lazy jacks, the full battens will lay right down on top of the boom. These are some of the things I have done to make my pilot house a simple to sail cruising boat. It all works very well and minimizes my need to go forward especially in a heavy sea state.

Most importantly however is: just get it built and go sailing. If you're waiting till everything is perfect then maybe go sailing with someone else in the mean time.

On my 23 the halyard winch is right behind the line clutch bundle where both the main halyard and, in my case, the topping lift are located.  I also use it for the furler line led forward.  A must have winch, in my opinion.

Agree on the paint, love the dark boats, but with gelcoat very difficult to keep up for long.  I painted three boats dark, two with Imron, the third with perfection plus.  The longevity with catalyzed polyurethane is astounding.

Quote from: Potcake boy on August 26, 2018, 11:49:02 AM
9. I am confused about the response you received in regard to the size of the deck vent. I installed the Marinco 4" on my fore deck, which required making the hole slightly larger. I purchased a second 3" for the head because of the limited space on the cabin top, but returned it when I discovered the cover for the 3" and 4" are the same size. So if cover size is an issue then there would be no advantage to the 3" model. If mounting hole size is the issue then Hutchins can easily provide the proper size hole. The 4" has been fine on the fore deck.

I bough the 4 inch Marinco, and I though it was way too big. The 3 inch is 1 inch smaller in diameter, but the height is the same as the 4 inch. Maybe I'll take another look to see if the 4 inch Marinco looks good. The boat came with a 3 inch vent.

Do compacs have an issue with the dark colored hulls oxidizing quicker than other boat manufacturers' colored hulls? I have the dark green and wish I had white!

BR - can't think of any reason that Com-Pacs should be any worse for fading than any other boat builder. Pretty sure there are a limited number of suppliers for the resins and pigment used. Some of the top builders are now finishing their boats with Imron, which requires no maintenance other than washing, and stays beautiful for many many years. Imron however is difficult to repair if you scratch it so post production damage could be a real PIA for the builder and dealer.

Haven't had a chance to try it yet, but someone said a friend of his that rejuvenates old boats and resells them uses muratic  acid to remove the oxidation and leaves the gel coat looking like new. Sounds to good to be true, but if anyone has an old hull that is very badly oxidized, might be worth a try.

Gus - are you referring to the vent size or the deck cutout size? 

I bough the 4 inch Marinco, and I though it was way too big. The 3 inch is 1 inch smaller in diameter, but the height is the same as the 4 inch. Maybe I'll take another look to see if the 4 inch  Marinco looks good. The boat came with a 3 inch vent.

The 4" vent fits fine on the fore-deck, and will accommodate the deck camber.

Quote from: Potcake boy on August 27, 2018, 11:18:23 PM
Gus - are you referring to the vent size or the deck cutout size? 

I bough the 4 inch Marinco, and I though it was way too big. The 3 inch is 1 inch smaller in diameter, but the height is the same as the 4 inch. Maybe I'll take another look to see if the 4 inch  Marinco looks good. The boat came with a 3 inch vent.

The 4" vent fits fine on the fore-deck, and will accommodate the deck camber.

The 3 inch cutout is one inch smaller in overall diameter, but same height. I'll give it another try, I took it out of the box and I though it was too big for the foredeck camber.

Thanks!

Ron,
I had not heard of muratic acid - The only way I have found to keep the oxidation at bay on my dark green hull is a lot of old fashioned elbow grease with the 3M Marine Restorer and Wax applied via an orbital buffer. I find that it needs to be done at least annually to keep the oxidation at bay.  I am resigned to just letting the oxidation slowly take over and maybe do it every couple of years.  Oh well, I do envy those of you with the white hulls.

BR

BR - in response to your last post, I did some investigating and determined the following: There are less caustic forms of acid that are just as effective and less harmful to you and/or other than plastic components typically found on or around boats i.e. fittings and trailer. Based on opinions expressed it seems that acid is only effective on stains. Not a scientific opinion but one expressed by several is that dullness is due to pitting of the gel coat by the sun's UV and must be corrected by mechanical means - back to good old elbow grease. I had a Suncat with a blue hull which was pretty dull when I acquired it. I used the wet sanding approach and got an improvement only after a lot of work. I was concerned that starting out with an abrasive too great would remove the colored gel coat so I was very restrained. I think I started with something like 150 and progressed through 1500 or 2000. Problem is that the heavier the initial grit the more you have to sand with the finer grit to remove the scratches of the heavier grit. Inversely if you start with a very fine grit you may not effectively remove the bulk of the oxidation and simply put a shine on the chalkiness. I got the hull looking decent, but not as I would have wanted. The process was laborious, messy, and time consuming. So unless there is some miracle in a bottle then I am resolved to either stick with a white hull, or paint for any other color.

The following statement for amusement only:
Wasn't it nice when boats were made of wood and the function of paint was more important than the cosmetics? The oyster-men of the Chesapeake would typically use paint from Sears or the hardware store for their boats. Is our quest for beautiful boats a product of social progress or just boat show marketing. I eventually came to settle with the solution for my Suncat was that I couldn't see the hull when sailing and that if it disturbed others it wasn't my problem. Just a philosophical way to skin the cat.

Quote from: Potcake boy on August 28, 2018, 10:20:14 AM
BR - in response to your last post, I did some investigating and determined the following: There are less caustic forms of acid that are just as effective and less harmful to you and/or other than plastic components typically found on or around boats i.e. fittings and trailer. Based on opinions expressed it seems that acid is only effective on stains. Not a scientific opinion but one expressed by several is that dullness is due to pitting of the gel coat by the sun's UV and must be corrected by mechanical means - back to good old elbow grease. I had a Suncat with a blue hull which was pretty dull when I acquired it. I used the wet sanding approach and got an improvement only after a lot of work. I was concerned that starting out with an abrasive too great would remove the colored gel coat so I was very restrained. I think I started with something like 150 and progressed through 1500 or 2000. Problem is that the heavier the initial grit the more you have to sand with the finer grit to remove the scratches of the heavier grit. Inversely if you start with a very fine grit you may not effectively remove the bulk of the oxidation and simply put a shine on the chalkiness. I got the hull looking decent, but not as I would have wanted. The process was laborious, messy, and time consuming. So unless there is some miracle in a bottle then I am resolved to either stick with a white hull, or paint for any other color.

The following statement for amusement only:
Wasn't it nice when boats were made of wood and the function of paint was more important than the cosmetics? The oyster-men of the Chesapeake would typically use paint from Sears or the hardware store for their boats. Is our quest for beautiful boats a product of social progress or just boat show marketing. I eventually came to settle with the solution for my Suncat was that I couldn't see the hull when sailing and that if it disturbed others it wasn't my problem. Just a philosophical way to skin the cat.

I like your way of thinking!

Tons of great ideas here!

I bought two CP 25 diesels ... eek, 19 years ago.  My foray into a sailboat dealership and charter operation ...

Even then, I knew there were better options for auxiliary propulsion, but what was available was like buying one of Bill Gate's garage computers.  At least, at that time, unless you were a locomotive, alternative propulsion had to be home built in a garage.

In the past 15, 20 years; energy storage and density has come a LONG LONG WAY.

For a five mile lake, I would hands down go with electric propulsion, even still with a shaft and prop underneath.  Ample lithium iron phosphate batteries would run that boat at 4 or more knots for six or more hours; even sufficient for the cruises in the Chesapeake.

no engine maintenance, EVER.  No impellers, no fuel filters, no oil changes.

If you insist on a diesel, insist on a day tank of less than 3 gallons; like a portable outboard tank.  Use it exclusively in Ohio.  Keep the inboard tank clean.  Buy a diesel tractor, and at the end of your season on the 5 mile lake, put the remaining 2.5 gallons diesel you bought in the spring in the tractor.

Et cetera.

The (lack of) hours you'll put on the diesel, the (lack of) load you'll put on the diesel; you'll have more hours in diesel maintenance and fuel maintenance than you'll have on the engine...

It is, after all, a SAIL boat

Great idea on the small portable diesel tank, unless you plan to run the motor enough to keep the fuel fresh.

We had a guy in our former sail club that had a 35ft boat with an inboard diesel.  He was an infrequent sailor--the boat sat more than it was used.  His inboard diesel tank got gummed up and he spent more of one summer trying to clean it out to the point where the motor would run. 

Many of us suggested to him that if he ever got it running again, he should set a T in his fuel line, create a space for a 5 gallon portable tank, and NEVER use the internal tank again.  Don't think he ever made it that far, but to most of us, we figured it would be time and money well spent.

Ron

Two thoughts on the diesel...

1-  Had a diesel in my Flicka 20  Yanmar 1gm.  Had the boat for five years, only went through 2 full tanks of diesel in that time (Percy Priest Lake, TN).  Added marine diesel additive to each tank, and never had an issue in five years. My personal experience, your mileage may vary...  If you don't put in the additive, microbes will surely grow in your tank and leave you a huge mess. 

2- Use a five gallon portable can and put in diesel additive to eliminate microbe growth.  Then simply add to your permanent tank a gallon or two at a time depending on your use.  My 1gm would run several hours on a gallon.  Figure out your consumption rate, and look at your hour meter.  As you approach your gallon (or two usage) add from your portable diesel tank to your permanent tank.

Just my .02

Hey Zappie, much good advice given here so will not bother with tons of it but would like to second a few ideas and offer a perspective. First of all congrats on the 23D, we returned to sailing with a 23D we had for a while and they are great sailing boats!

The list of items you are already considering is a good list and here is my perspective on some.

-So.....do reconsider the hull color if ever thinking about warmer climes as more that one person has regretted a dark hull in hot weather aside from just the cosmetic issues.

-Get the furler. Going forward on a small boat in building wind and sea is not tons of fun.

-We addressed the water tank issues with flexible tanks. They can fit almost anywhere.

-Had the marine head and frankly using it in the middle of the night right beside the head of my better half is less than ideal. Porta potties are equally bad in that location but at least can be removed and doesn't cost much. At dock we used the bath house and while out wished we could have had the potty outside. We usually sought out private locations. It was also must for our next boat, a self contained head. Happy wife now!
!
-23's are not trailer sailers. they can are moved on a trailer but are not the easiest to rig, launch, recover, de-rig. The lake you are gong to keep her is a small body of water for having good fetch. sounds as though you aware of what the 23 is and is not.

-plan to convert the cockpit to a queen sized bed for nice nights with a filler for the well (we used the cockpit grate and added mounting strips and cross bracing) and a boom tent. Best spot to sleep on that boat!

-We had a Yanmar 1gm and an 11 gallon fuel tank. That equaled 48 hours of non stop motoring if desired. Do use the additive as you will rarely go through a tank in a season.

-many things can be added as you find need for them. It's easy to get excited and try to plan everything up front. I would hardily recommend sailing her for a season or two and then decide what else is needed. Keep it simple, that is the beauty of the 23. Attached a photo of that boat 'No Mas'.

Welcome to a great bunch of folks and a great little boat!

-Had the marine head and frankly using it in the middle of the night right beside the head of my better half is less than ideal. Porta potties are equally bad in that location but at least can be removed and doesn't cost much. At dock we used the bath house and while out wished we could have had the potty outside. We usually sought out private locations. It was also must for our next boat, a self contained head. Happy wife now

Just got back from an overnight and my wife reminded me how much she appreciated the changed head option.  We had a porta potty and separating the holding tank, pulling it out of the boat from between the forward v-berth with  only bending headroom at 95F then dumping the nasty thing, then recharging was horrible.  I have a filler for the v-berth, and a topper with a fitted sheet to make the area very nice for sleeping, particularly in colder weather.  However the head becomes unusable when the berth is made up.  I  replaced the pp with a Clean Waste toilet using Wag Bags that is very light and can be moved to either the cockpit or main cabin area at night.  That move made me a hero with my wife.  I keep a 5 gallon bucket with a gamma seal lid in the starboard cockpit locker to put the used Wag Bags in along with all the other boat trash and cleanup becomes dumping the bucket in a dumpster on the way to my truck.

I bought a gross of Wag Bags which will be a lifetime supply I'm sure.  Crazy Carl put me on them at a very good price, and although my wife has never met CC she is forever indebted.

On the topic of heads:

I have become a champion of composting heads, but my pilot house has a enclosed head area so it is a natural. From the above posts, I can appreciate the the inconvenience of the head under the v-berth. I use that space for my Engle fridge and it's easy to forgo midnight snacks, in favor of not disturbing the Admiral. I love the idea of sleeping in the cockpit, but I would be the main attraction for the mosquitoes when anchored in our favorite spots here in Florida.

I used a bucket and wag bags on my Corsair tri and kept the whole apparatus in the ama (float) which provided more space in the cabin. That system worked very well with the single exception of the slight smell that permeated the bags. It could have been the brand of bags (purchased at Walmart). The concept isn't that different from a composting head, so I have to wonder if adding some composting media may solve then problem of containing the odor. I use Cedar chips from the pet section. If I still had a wag bag system I would try it myself, but hopefully some one out there will try this experiment and share the results.

Still on the subject of diesel or day tanks:
- huge plus for a 3 gallon day tank.  Or even 1 gallon.  Adding 1 gallon or 3 gallons to an 11 gallon tank doesn't make all that you added use-able.  Too much spread out thin with way too much humidity; I guess in a few years you'll own a peat bog contained in the tank.  Plus, much much easier to handle doing fuel transfers underway a great way to make a mess.

And a new topic: if you're commissioning a vessel to be built, insist on ABYC-compliant wiring.  I actually asked that question 18 years ago and forget what lukewarm answer I got, but when I received the vessel(s) it was clear that A) the ABYC coloring code was not followed; B) Marine Grade tinned wire was not used; and more.  Once it's done, it's done; as some of it is inaccessible if not even glassed into place.  So even if they charge you an upgrade; it's worth $500 in my opinion.  Even to bump EVERYTHING up one wire gauge wouldn't hurt, i.e. instead of run 14ga run 12ga, instead of 16ga run 14ga.  That adds YEARS to the longevity of the system as corrosion will eventually eat almost everything (except the fiberglass and other plastics, sad state of affairs there but hey they have improved our world).

<<<Now at 4 years plus the only way out is to spray paint the hull.>>>

I just took over a Sun Cat that had a badly faded (from 2006) green hull. The previous owner and I, using a decent grade of marine paint from West Marine, brush painted the hull and the thick paint covered well, had virtually no brush marks (none that can be noticed unless you look really hard) and looks great (and was pretty easy to apply, took far less paint than expected). A bit of paint left over has been great for some dock burn that we have encountered as we learn how the boat responds...

That said, given a choice with a new boat, I expect I would opt for white...

Another faded green hull owner here. What type of paint did you use? Please post a photo if you can. thanks.

We used Easypoxy, a Pettit brand, topside paint for both the hull and topsides. The paint was already purchased and partially on when I bought the boat; I would have opted for something designed for the hull, though even in the water all of the new paint is above the bottom paint and painted waterline - topside paint is not recommended for constant immersion.  We are not in the water all season, but aspire to that once I get a slip (on the waiting list). We scuffed the surface with a random orbital sander, which did not take much time.

The photo on our profile shows it from a distance, and if successfully attached the photos below show the name being painted on (with topside paint) and whole hull in the driveway.

next photo

My experience was from cruising a Compac 23 on the Chesapeake Bay for longer cruises.  I was single handed and did a few trips of a week or longer.

The Compac 23 will surprise you with its sailing ability.  While it won't point like a deep keel racing boat, it doesn't do as bad as I thought it would.  It held its own upwind.  Off of the wind I flew an asymmetrical spinnaker and that thing was downright fun.  I was often beating an Uncle that would cruise his Catalina 34 when I had the spinnaker flying.

A tiller pilot is a must.  I ran the crap out of mine and it was very handy to have on board (that is how I could fly a spinnaker single handed).

I had a VHF with AIS receive that was networked to my chart plotter.  That was an awesome addition and I loved being able to see a lot of the boats around me on my GPS. 

Here is a video that I shot of my last trip on the Compac 23:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqDQ1VHNwVM&t=479s

Enjoy the new boat!