Hello everyone. Have a question about (a) best outboard horsepower for a CP 23 and (b) possibly replacing the original manufacturer's motor mount. I'm trying to decide whether to purchase a lighter 6 hp outboard, to use with the original motor mount, versus replacing the motor mount to more easily handle a heavier 9.9 hp outboard currently on the boat. I'm looking at this because the heavy 9.9 is difficult to lower and lift using the current mount.
I recently purchased, as 2nd owner, a 2005 CP 23 Mark IV in really great condition (per the Surveyor). The boat is moored in Seattle, WA, with big water in Puget Sound, and potential for high winds, 4 ft+ waves, and 5+ knot tidal currents (if weather turns bad).
I have contacted ComPac Yachts and understand the motor mount is a no-name import rated for an 85 pound motor. The surveyor and a boat yard repair guy both looked at the mount, and it appears to be in good working order along with the transom. I don't like the "T" handle on the mount, which requires grabbing the T handle by splitting fingers (2-T-2), versus a 4 or 5 in. wide handle, that I could wrap all four fingers and my thumb around. My boat has a 2004 Honda 4 stroke 9.9 hp with long shaft and electric start, weighing approximately 110 pounds.
Wondering what you as owners recommend. Just today read previous posts to this website, and wondering if there are any new thoughts given improvements in both motors and engine mounts. Past postings regarding motor hp indicate a lot of folks use a 6 hp long shaft Tohatsu SailPro with a long shaft, which is apparently easier to lift and lower. There are some comments that, under adverse conditions, e.g., strong head wind, bucking tidal or river currents, 8 to 9.9 hp is more desirable. I note my boat Manual indicates my model CP 23 is rated for 6-8 hp. I didn't really see a lot of comments on motor mounts with different motor/weight ratings.
Out here, I've talked with a Honda outboard dealership, the marina-associated boat yard supervisor, and a boat yard specializing in Honda outboard engines. The dealership suggests 6 HP would likely be too little power under adverse conditions. I note in prior CP owners website postings the comment was made that the 6 HP would probably do but would be pushing at maximum revs. The boat yard supervisor came and looked at my boat and said motor mounts/hoists are kind of all alike and suggested I make, maybe with some rope and a dowel, a kind of extension for the motor mount T handle, leaving everything else as is. I haven't tried this yet. The Honda outboard boat yard said they could install a motor mount with "bigger springs" rated for a heavier engine. Out here, West Marine has a Panther mount rated for 4 strokes "up to 15 HP or 132 pounds" with 10 inches of travel. I know there are other mount options. I was given a rough quote to install the new, heavier capacity mount for about $800, and I see a Honda 6 hp outboard, new, is about $1800 (but much lighter than my current engine, at about 60 pounds).
Thanks for reading all this. Any suggestions regarding outboard horsepower and/or appropriate motor mounts for different engine sizes and weights?
I strongly prefer a 2 cylinder where appropriate. I had a Tohatsu Sailpro 6hp, and hated it. It had a lot of vibration and noise. Prior I had a Tohatsu 9.9 for a very short time (someone liked it better than I). The 9.9 seemed a decent motor while I had it, however check out the new 9.9 [ https://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/9_9_4st.html ]. It has EFI, batteryless starting - impressive at 95 pounds. There is also a 2 cylinder 8hp at 81 pounds, but not as technically sophisticated. Looks like Tohatsu is moving up it's market position. My favorite is still Yamaha. they seem to be so quiet and dependable. Their 9.9 Thrust is a classic but kind of on the heavy side. Haven't had much experience with Honda, except for my 2.0 dingy motor, that I love because of it's simplicity and light weight.
Honda 8.0 and 9.9 use the same block and the 9.9 only develops it's rated horsepower at higher rpm so for practical purposes you get the same motor in the 8hp. Looks like a nice sailboat motor with the 4 blade propeller which is probably more useful in demanding situations than the extra horsepower.
Just my opinion. But I am sure that you would be happier with a 2 cylinder if you will be doing much motoring.
I had a 19 and my 4hp yamaha long shaft would occasionally pop out of the water when the waves were over 2ft. 4ft waves and 5 knots of current are rather severe so you really need something with thrust and depth. Think the advice of the 8hp and a high trust prop is sound. I thought CP used Garelick mounts. They have one, #71090, with a solid handle that might also match the previous hole pattern. Best of luck!
My 23 came with a Suzuki 9.9 20" shaft, electric start, 4 stroke. Weighed 105 lbs. Was hard to lift with the mount, hard to dismount for trailering and too heavy to leave on in my opinion, affected trim caused the boat to squat and ship water up the scuppers. Required a second start battery, and if dead it was hard to pull start.
I replaced it with a 59 lbs. Nissan (Tohatsu) 6hp 25" shaft sail pro. All the above mentioned problems gone. The first time I raised it with the mount, I almost fell back into the cockpit because I pulled hard as I would have with the old motor. This one so light, no back issue lifting it. Pull start is very easy, usually one or two times to crank. The only downside was a little more vibration because it is a single cylinder motor.
The design calcs for a 23 call for 5.6 min hp for hull speed. That might be low depending on much weight you are carrying and how much current you might have to fight. Negligible for me.
The Suzuki has been souped up to 15 hp and is happily powering the 14' planing skiff I built.
I too recently bought a 9.9 hp Yamaha electric start and power tilt for my '87 MK-2. It replaces an 8 hp Evinrude twin cylinder that has lost a lot of power due to low compression.
My rationale for the Yamaha was quality, twin cylinder smoothness and power features that ease the aches and pains of age (I'm 67). I haven't installed it yet but I'm pretty sure I ll also need to replace the motor mount. Current mount is an old OMC with a gas cylinder. While it works fine, the rating is too low for the new engine. Still shopping around for a mount....
By the way, my other rationale for a heavier engine is that I've lost 45 lbs over the last year, so have compensated for the heavier engine. I'm also planning to move my battery and install a second one amidships to better balance the added battery weight.
Thanks to all for your thoughtful answers! Sounds like the 8 to 9.9 hp would be best for adverse conditions (hopefully avoided mostly), but with appropriate weight rating for the mount, so likely need to replace the existing one. 6 hp sounds fine in locations with milder conditions when weather kicks up. I'll mull over comments re added stern weight and wallowing. Will check out the Garelick mount too. Again many thanks.
So I don't yet have a ton of experience with my 23 since I have only had it on the water for a short time but here is what I have seen. I have a mid 70's 6hp 2 cycle outboard that runs well. Yesterday I was motoring at slack tide with smooth water. At full throttle my gps was reading 9 knts. I thought it was a mistake knowing that hull speed is 6knts. I opened a speedometer app on my phone and it was reading 10 mph. Still surprised I watch the shoreline and I was definitely moving fast. Point being that 6 hp seems to move my boat quite well. Can't say what it would do with wind on the nose or in a chop. Has anyone else seen this kind of speed under power?
Horsepower is the least important factor in driving our vessels. For example, since the maximum speed for our 23s is around 6 or so knots then you will not benefit from excessive power. If you are going against a 3 knot current then you will be making 3 knots over the bottom although you may be making 6 knots through the water. More horsepower is not going to change that. If you are powering against steep chop, then you are essentially driving your hull over small steep hills, we do not have wave piercing hulls. Ideally the best solution is the largest displacement with the least horsepower and a high torque (low pitch) prop. I personally feel the extra weight of a two cylinder is worth the benefit of a smoother quieter running motor.
I solved the awkward situation of lifting the motor on my 19 by attaching a system like a vang to the lifting handle and the other end to the stern rail. The springs along with the purchase from the 3:1 or 4:1 system make it an easy task. I removed the rod that the handle locks into so that it would go up and down without me having to hold the the handle. Also the system will support much of the weight so your motor bracket won't be supporting all the extra weight. If you are concerned about the motor bouncing in rough water or in reverse then either remove some of the springs (my solution) or remove the section of the handle that locks it in position, except for the lowest setting.
On my 19 I had a new 15" Yamaha 8hp 4 stroke. With the locking pin removed the bracket allowed much more vertical movement so I never had a problem with cavitating and I only needed shallow water lift to clear the water when it was raised. I equipped it with the high thrust prop which made it perfectly adequate for that boat. I am confident that the same would work well for a 23.
Don't be sucked into the myth that more horsepower equals higher speed or better ability against wind and tide. If you look at the specs on most manufacturers 8 and 9.9 motors you will find the same specs for both except the hp rating and the RPM range. The extra hp is typically derived from the higher rpm which you are unlikely to achieve on our displacement hulls.
Keep in mind that you'll not be doing 6 knots against a 2 or 3 knot tide, so save the extra money you would spend on a bigger motor and invest in a tide chart. Sailing captains of yesteryear left port on the high tide with no motor at all, and the laws of physics haven't changed since then.
If you look at the specs on most manufacturers 8 and 9.9 motors you will find the same specs for both except the hp rating and the RPM range.
Good point made here, when buying an outboard motor for a displacement hull it is wise to check the motor displacement against the same manufacturers motors both up and down the HP offerings. Often the displacement is exactly the same for two or three motors and, if nothing else is offered but HP, you should buy the least expensive that is above your hull HP requirement. You'll just pay more money for the higher HP that you will never use with that flat pitch prop. The new four strokes generally get the different HP's with carb only. For instance, my 9.9 is also a 15 with a carb change. I never bothered when it was on the 23, but did buy a new 15 carb when I put it on the planing skiff. Also bought a new prop to get the WOT RPM at the top of the power zone for that configuration. I went through the whole parts list for the two HP's looking for something different, only difference was the carb.
But no, with a slick clean fresh paint bottom, on a slick calm windless lake, with my 6 hp at WOT I never got over calculated hull speed which is 6.01 for the 23. When you say no current or tidal movement, did you turn the boat around and get the same readings going the other way?
9.9hp BTX Suzuki drives my 7900# Sabre 28 to hull speed easily. That weighs twice as much as the Tohatsu Sailpro 6 I had on my Compac 23. The Suzuki threw off the balance on the Sabre, would be a ton of weight on the Compac. I really liked the Sailpro on the Compac. Easy to get on/off at the start/end of the season, drove the boat well and was light enough to raise/lower/tilt during the day. Electric start would have been nice to have though.
That new Tohatsu seems to be aimed directly at the the Suzuki 9.9BTX. Suzuki has EFI (with lean burn for better fuel economy), power start, power tilt, NMEA engine interface, 12amp alternator and is a larger displacement than most 9.9s as it is the same block as their 20hp model. That Tohatsu must be a new block as it displacement is slightly larger (.32ci) than the Suzuki. When I was shopping for outboards 2 years ago the Tohatsu 9.9 was much smaller.
Shawn
Quote from: Petit Marin on July 22, 2018, 09:11:28 PM
So I don't yet have a ton of experience with my 23 since I have only had it on the water for a short time but here is what I have seen. I have a mid 70's 6hp 2 cycle outboard that runs well. Yesterday I was motoring at slack tide with smooth water. At full throttle my gps was reading 9 knts. I thought it was a mistake knowing that hull speed is 6knts. I opened a speedometer app on my phone and it was reading 10 mph. Still surprised I watch the shoreline and I was definitely moving fast. Point being that 6 hp seems to move my boat quite well. Can't say what it would do with wind on the nose or in a chop. Has anyone else seen this kind of speed under power?
Hull speed is 6knots... through the water. Your GPS and app are both measuring speed over land. If you have a strong current (in your favor) you are still only moving 6 knots through the water but your speed over land is the addition of the speed of the water itself (current) and your speed through the water.
Flipside is if you are fighting the current. You can be going 6 knots through the water but your speed over land could be very small, or even backwards if the current is fast enough.
Shawn
The outboard mount that came with the boat is broken (won't move up or down). I think it's stuck in the down position, and I have a SailPro, the propeller was barely under the water. I bough a new Garelick 71033 to replace it. Did I buy the right one?
Quote from: Gus on August 02, 2018, 09:44:45 AM
The outboard mount that came with the boat is broken (won't move up or down). I think it's stuck in the down position, and I have a SailPro, the propeller was barely under the water. I bough a new Garelick 71033 to replace it. Did I buy the right one?
That one has almost a foot of travel, and since you are replacing it, I would think you can plug the old holes and put it where you need to..in case you didn't see it there's a great measuring doc at
http://www.garelick.com/files/12.185.pdf
I have the Tohatsu Ultra long outboard and I've had the prop pop out of the water in rolling water a couple times (boat previously was a inland flat water boat I think) , so part of my summer plan is to reposition it downwards.
Quote from: AislinGirlII on August 02, 2018, 02:25:12 PM
That one has almost a foot of travel, and since you are replacing it, I would think you can plug the old holes and put it where you need to..in case you didn't see it there's a great measuring doc at
http://www.garelick.com/files/12.185.pdf
I have the Tohatsu Ultra long outboard and I've had the prop pop out of the water in rolling water a couple times (boat previously was a inland flat water boat I think) , so part of my summer plan is to reposition it downwards.
Hi! Yes, the mount came with the same instructions. I think I'm going to replace it for now (boat's on the water at the moment), and once I get the chance, I'll move it down some. The problem was using the engine in reverse. It will not "bite" the water like the old Chrysler used to do, so I had no reverse power at all.
Defender doesn't have the 71039, so I went with the 71033. I hope I didn't make a mistake.
My '85 23 II, which I purchased in '14 from the original owner came with the stock motor mount & a '98 Nissan 9.8 HP, 2 cycle, 2 cylinder, long shaft OB with electric start. The OB has few hours on it and runs like a charm. At 76 years of age (soon to be 77) I too find the OB difficult to raise. Being a Scot I went the economical route and purchased a bracket from Defender Marine in Waterford, CT. The one I got is a Garelick 71056 (Item # 302167) rated for an OB weighing no more than 115 lbs and 7.5 to 20 HP. It will be installed in the spring and am anticipating a much easier time raising & lowering the Nissan.
Bogel85
See my earlier post regarding a solution for raising your outboard. A boom vang would be perfect for the application.
Hope you have better luck than my experience. I found the Garelick motor mount locking quality to be lacking. I wound up returning it and going with a fixed mount. I also switched to a Yamaha outboard with electric start and power tilt.
My 92 Compac 23 IV has a 95 Mercury 9.9 2 stroke long shaft manual start motor. I asM on Lake Michigan and sometimes find myself in 6-8 ft close chop. The motor works great in those conditions and I have used it to get home from crossing the lake with no issues. It will push the boat about 60 miles on a 6 gallon tank. I have the stock motor mount and it easily lifts with the springs. I am happy. I guy near me in the marina has an electric lift motor mount. That seems pretty cool.
Frankly it was an old guy move, hoping to keep sailing as long as I can hoist the sails!
MY COPAC 23 CAME WITH A YAMAHA 8 HP AND THE MOTOR MOUNT WAS :
Catalina Direct heavy-duty spring-assisted stainless-steel lifting motor mount
I FIND BOTH THE YAMAHA 8 AND THE MOTOR MOUNT TO BE AN EXCEPTIONAL
SET UP. EASY TO USE , LIFTS THE ENGINE RIGHT UP, NO PINCHED FINGERS.
THE MOTOR IS ELECTRIC START , POWER TILT, AND IS QUIET AND POWERFUL.
CONTESSA