Folks,
I did extensive research to find a trailer friendly Com-PAC. I am deeply in love with my CP 19, but it is slip bound in Barnegat bay, and i do not have trailer or big enough tow vehicle. I looked very closely at the CP 16, but while cabin is great for wife potty activity, the 16 is also too heavy when fully loaded for my Subaru.
Well, as the wife will probly leave me anyway when she sees boat in driveway, I do love the Subaru, so decision is made.
Now hard part s to find a used one.
I am also going to explore purchasing new. I am in mid 50's, so can rationalize as better no scaling down for retirement.
If new, any suggestions for the options? Would like lazy jacks. What is your impression of the metal rubrail? I do like, and use often, the big rubber one on my 19 during docking.
Thanks,
Brian
I was at Winter's in Riverside recently and they have either a Picnic or Suncat in the showroom. Cool little boats. Did a quick searchtempest.com look and there's one in Alabama for $2500. Road trip! Best of luck on your hunt.
Reign,
They also have a used one outside, but condition does not match asking price.
Now, with cash in hand, and before wife finds out, I will see if the asking price for the used on is negotiable. I also have a good trade it to sweeten the deal.
Brian,
We bought our PC new in 2010, after comparing it to and sailing other easily trailerable and garageable catboats in production, the ThomCat 15 (formerly Menger 15), and the Marshall Sandpiper. We haven't regretted the decision for a minute. If we were keeping it on a mooring, we probably would have gone for the Sandpiper, but the PC is a dream to trailer behind my vehicle of choice, a small wagon, currently a diesel Jetta.
For options, we got a transom boarding ladder, Bimini, anchor roller, adjustable motor mount, and sail cover. We had Com-Pac upgrade the blocks to Harken, rig the throat halyard 2:1 to match the peak halyard, and leave off the stock locker latches which we didn't like. The broker had his sailmaker install lazy jacks, which double as a topping lift, which I've since modified.
I maintain a database of upgrades I've done since, now up to 42. Some are more involved, such as a rudder lift, hinged tiller, and midship boarding ladder, and some more basic. I'm working on a foiled rudder now. For the trailer, side bunks and LED lights top the list. Send me a personal message with your email address if you'd like a copy.
All the ramps we use have floats, and we rig fenders to protect the hull (dark blue). The rub rail doesn't come into play.
I moderate the Yahoo PC list, and I don't know of any boats for sale by the members there. I'll ask to see if there's a boat near you.
Have you had a chance to sail a PC?
Bruce,
Great insights here, thanks. Boarding ladder and lazy jacks were aready in my focus, but having harken blocks and halyard ratio done by Hutchins is very good planning.
Do you use the Bimini often? I am n NJ, and survive with my Tilley hat in the sun. I Suffer from Irish freckled skin and prone to bursting into flame, but I seem to manage on th CP 19 ok.
I have never sailed a gaff rigged cat, and have not even been on a PC that was floating. I do sail a Bauer 12 with a ginter rigged main. I am hoping to trade in this excellent and worthy boat to help defer the PC cost.
It is very interesting to note the lack of PC's in the used market, and those available are over 70% of initial cost. Economically, this is a very rare time that it may make sense to buy new.
Regards, and thanks,
Brian
Hey Brian,
No, we don't use the Bimini. We share ancestry, and I can burn in moonlight, but I rely on my Tilley as well.
Given your extensive experience, you'll be able to handle a catboat without a problem, but it is a little different. I think Bill Welch's book is excellent in this. If you're still looking come later in April, I'd gladly give you a ride.
https://www.amazon.com/Competitive-Racing-Small-Gaff-Rigged-Catboats/dp/1419683829
If I hear of a boat for sale near you I'll let you know.
Bruce,
Thanks for the "head up" on the book. Will order soon.
I had a chance to look online at the anchor roller, and not sure the benefit outweighs the "ram" risk on the bow. For me, it is no concern, but The Barnegat Bay Com-PAC squadren may have some anxiety at raft up time. However the deck hawser for storing the anchor chain and rode would be welcome.
Do you find it usefull and convenient to keep the anchor ready to deploy from the roller?
I no longer keep the anchor on the bowsprit roller on my CP 19, but this is due to 1) the layout of my slip and 2) It it easier to deploy from stern in emergency. If I know anchoring is in the plan for the day, then it is on roller.
Thanks again,
Brian
Brian: We don't worry 'bout no anchor roller!
We don't anchor often, but it is ready to deploy if needed in a tight situation. And it is cute. Installing a hawse pipe wouldn't be a problem, but the chain locker doesn't drain. If I was anchoring frequently, I'd do something different.
In the spreadsheet I mentioned, I do have a column about usefulness. IMHO, the most important mods for the most part aren't covered by the options Com-Pac offers.
Bob, you would be worrying if I was on a run, the big single sail belly full, and a CP 23, sporting a few PBR's lying broadside at anchor. It's dangerous to jibe those cats, so it may be a bit close.
Reminds me, been meaning to watch that galley scene from Ben Hur again...
You'll love jibing the PC. Grab the sheet fall as it comes across and keep the other hand on the tiller so she doesn't round up, no drama.
FB:
Good choice!
I've had mine for 18 years and never regretted it (downsized from a 28' Precision). Initially towed with an Outback and had to keep looking back to see if the boat was still there it was so easy. I've been wanting to install a bimini for about 15 years now (similar heritage) but have never got around to it...mainly for the days when the wind fades to a whisper and I start to overheat as the floppy hat doesn't help for that. Started out with a 3hp 2-stroke and changed to a 30# thrust trolling motor 4 years ago...I'm retired so getting places fast doesn't factor any more, plus I believe in sailing a sailboat instead of turning it into a motor dinghy at the simplest excuse. Putting the battery for the motor just aft of the mast and going with a really light motor also helps a bit with trim while single-handing as otherwise she'll tend to drag her stern a bit.
As Bruce said, gybing is nothing to fear and the high peaked gaff is not that prone to a chinese gybe anyway. Going 2:1 on the throat halyard is a nice improvement, although after all these years I'm used to the difference; I did upgrade to Harken blocks after a couple of years as the Hutchins standard back then was high-friction and slightly undersized (cheeks too close to the line). Mine came with Sunbrella covers for the centerboard casing and the tiller and both of those have probably saved many hours of varnish refinishing.
Enjoy your search!
Jon
Quote from: bruce on March 12, 2018, 07:35:28 AM
You'll love jibing the PC. Grab the sheet fall as it comes across and keep the other hand on the tiller so she doesn't round up, no drama.
The key phrase here is "grab the sheet fall as it comes across" . On my 23 that sheet fall has a tendency to cause my Tilley to go in the drink.:( Then you gotta come about and go fetch it. One of the factors leading me towards mid boom sheeting.
We also use a boom vang to control the boom off wind. A little unusual on a catboat, useful for flattening the sail, but for me the biggest benefit is keeping the boom down in bouncy conditions from traffic or chop.
Jon's comments on undersized blocks and keeping on her lines fore and aft are spot on. I don't know what blocks Com-Pac is using these days.
The high gaff angle is great for catching wind up high, and allowing for a higher boom set, which my crew greatly appreciates, but the throat gooseneck slide, even with the extended ring Com-pac welds on, is pinched between the gaff and mast. The ring can bend, causing binding in the track as the slide is hauled, and I know of one case where it broke off from the flexing. There is a good solution using standard Dwyer parts if that is a problem.
go for the anchor roller...
I'm retrofitting one onto my 16 right now, as space is a premium on a small boat, hauling around and anchor out of the cabin gets to be very burdensome, I anchor almost every time I take my boat out... To keep the 16, anchor storage was an absolute must with the admiral...
I'm using the pass through hull deck fitting from a 23 onto my 16, to cure the non draining chain locker cabinet, requires a little thinking outside the box, or bucket shall we say... Mount a 5 gallon bucket up there to contain the rode.... if it gets too wet, remove bucket to drain...
Brian,
I've heard from a PC owner who is interested in selling. The boat is currently at the Nyack Boat Club in Nyack, NJ. It's a 2014 with little use, and was unusual for me in that he launched with a hoist.
Contact me off list, and I'll provide his email.
Quote from: Finbar Beagle on March 10, 2018, 09:49:43 AM
Folks,
I did extensive research to find a trailer friendly Com-PAC. I am deeply in love with my CP 19, but it is slip bound in Barnegat bay, and i do not have trailer or big enough tow vehicle. I looked very closely at the CP 16, but while cabin is great for wife potty activity, the 16 is also too heavy when fully loaded for my Subaru.
Well, as the wife will probly leave me anyway when she sees boat in driveway, I do love the Subaru, so decision is made.
Now hard part s to find a used one.
I am also going to explore purchasing new. I am in mid 50's, so can rationalize as better no scaling down for retirement.
If new, any suggestions for the options? Would like lazy jacks. What is your impression of the metal rubrail? I do like, and use often, the big rubber one on my 19 during docking.
Thanks,
Brian
If you're actually
really drawn to the CP-16 or using your own 19 as a trailer sailor, then one solution might be a better towbeast and/or a trailer for your 19. You can buy those old Mark I (1998-2003) Dodge Durangos with the big 5.9 liter and 4 wheel drive for those slippery boat ramps all day long for about 2 "boat bucks" or less. Mine cost me $1,500 about 4 years ago and is still going strong. In fact, I like it so much it's become my daily driver and rolling boat chandlery. Gas mileage is relatively horrific at 10 to 12 mpg overall, if you're a sedate and light-footed pre-geezer like me, but a Durango 5.9's allowed maximum tow capacity is between 5,900 to 7,400 lbs., depending on its factory package and tranny. It tugs my Com-Pac 16 along like it ain't even there. It could handily tow a little parade's worth of the things. A few tips if you do go this route: avoid the 4.7 and 5.2 liter models (the then-new 4.7s were weirdly prone to fatal sludging of the oilways and the 5.2s were 2WD only), check the suspension and especially ball joints VERY carefully. Not super-expensive to put right, but it's still a pain in the ass that you can better live without. Check the transmission for absolutely perfect operation, any leakage and its fluid for a "burnt" look or smell. Some numbskull might have put some flavor of the more readily available Dexron fluid into it instead of the proper Mopar ATF+4. In fact, if you're planning on primarily relying on whichever Durango you may get for towing, then you might do well as job one to simply pump out a goodly portion of whatever fluid's in there with a hand pump right out of the dipstick tube and replace that with ATF+4 and a bottle of that Lucas Transmission Fix. It won't get all of it out--there'll still be a bunch in the torque converter--but it'll still do it the power of good.
An old Ford Explorer or Chevy Suburban in the same price neighborhood (and it's a lousy neighborhood whose sidewalks are littered with crack vials and broken malt liquor bottles) might also do the trick, but I have no firsthand experience with either.
Bilge,
All valid and good points.
For me, the CP-19 is best kept in water, for fast escape from real life (work, chores, family obligations). Need fast cast off of dock lines before next cell phone/email slows me down.
The size differene between the 16 and 19 are too close. Maybe 16 & 23 make sense (Bob in focus here). 19 and PC mean for lazy 4th of July raft up, 4 crew on the 19, and 6 on the PC gets 10 out at same time, while the 16&19 combo maxes at 8.
Key for me to trailer is simple and Easy. I think the Sunfish and PC lead all others here. I have ramp launched my 19, and it is not so bad, but pardon the pun, it is no picnic either.
Finally, big tow vehicle days are over for me when I finally had to put my Ford Econoline 250 down. It was too heartbreaking and I cannot do that again. Boat in driveway is bad enough for Admiral Mrs. Wife, big truck would mean i will be living on the 19.
I did donate the E250 and was able to view video of it being blown up during Army training. It was the Van version of a Viking funeral, very appropriate.
Regards,
Brian
Six will fit in the PC cockpit, but 4-5 is more comfortable for me. I like the mid boom sheeting, but it is a factor with crew. The Sun Cat Daysailer will set up as fast, and give you more room. (It takes us about 5 minutes, ask any power boater who tries to sneak ahead of us.) Probably fewer out there than PCs, and 1,500 lbs. vs. 500+ lbs., so vehicle choice is effected. Your Subbie may be up to it.
And then there's the HC Daysailer, that'll take a crowd! All said, the PC does have a big, comfortable cockpit for 14', with great storage.
6 is max, to watch fireworks, and touch of grog. No need for more, trying to escape from the family , not bring them all alone....
Sailing 4 max, all good.
And thanks for great lead in Nyack. So far so good.
Made offer on Nyack boat, keeping fingers crossed...
Good luck!
We may get out for the first sail of the season on Friday. I've got a new foiled rudder to test out.
Folks,
Just made it through Garden State Parkway South during Friday afternoon traffic, pulling our latest Compac, a 2013 Picnic Cat. from the shores of Tappan Zee NY to Shark River Nj.
Wife did not kill me on sight, but now need to take her to dinner...
All good.
Talo and Bruce, thanks again for all the help.
Regards,
Brian
Congrats! I bed Ellen and my Admiral would get along well. I'm always being accused of having too many boats...and my reply of "One wife, many boats" doesn't seem to be accepted well. Maybe I should scale down to one boat...many wives!! Ouch!!! I was kidding, dear...put that steak knife away!!!
That's great! I'm glad it worked out for both of you.
We did get out today. Not as much wind as forecast, to the delight of my crew. 6 kts. is a good minimum for a PC. We don't reef until the high teens, but even without the reef, gusts to 20 are OK. Chop is more limiting than wind.
Congrats Brian! And best of luck with the admiral. Are the other wives, oops I meant boats in your yard? Might want to move one out to a local marina. Ours charges $100 for summer storage in the trailer lot.
Reigh,
My 19 is at Beatons Boat Yard, Mantoloking. They are replacing my bow pulpit and installing CDI Jib furler. When I bought this boat, the trailer, luckily, got her here. Next stop for trailer was recycling, too much rust. So this boat will live in Beaton's yard for winters, also as my Subaru is too small to tow. I installed IDA rudder this year. The 19 May feel like a new boat also.
Baeton's is also getting centerboard of Bauer 12, unstuck. This was another reason to go to the Picnic Cat, as extra weight in centerboard should help prevent this, and the CB trunk can be opened to give access to free board. Again, superior robustness from Hutchins. When fixed, this goes up for sale. I am also selling a rowing dinghy, that has hardly been used. I will hide kayak and canoe behind shed. There is also a sunfish, but that has been in family for so long,and resurrected for several generation, it no longer counts as a boat, but as a family heirloom.
Hmmm, I guess I may have an issue, but boat storage is OK for now.
Regards,
Brian
Brian,
If a stuck CB is a concern, here's a couple of suggestions that have worked on a PC.
The only opening on the top of the welded SS trunk is the 1/2" pipe the pendant runs through. For a boat moored in saltwater, with the board stuck up, the fix was to fabricate a tool out of 1/4" rod. The end of the rod was peened flat, and a shallow, wide slot cut to engage the edge of the 1/4" CB, accessed down the pipe. A couple of whacks and the board was free. Don't know if it was hard growth or beach debris.
I've installed a shackle and short lanyard on my CB that hangs clear of the trunk with the board up. It's primarily to help with righting the boat in a capsize, since the board will slam back into the trunk if the boat turtles, but I can see it would also be useful to get a grip on the board to lever it out if it's jammed.
BTW, our CB can be dropped with the boat on the trailer, in our case a Magic Tilt. Your boat is newer than mine, so I'm guessing you have a Magic Tilt as well. Earlier PCs came with a Performance trailer. With the boat all the way forward on the trailer, a roller prevents the board from dropping, but if I slide the boat back 15" I can drop the board far enough to access the CB pendant. The trailer was hitched to the car, so there was some control if the tongue wanted to lift, but neither the boat or trailer showed any signs of tilting. I did tie the bow down to the trailer, and block up the transom, so I could work safely. To install the lanyard on the leading corner of the board, I only slid the boat back about 9".
The other sticking CB issue I found, when I first got the boat, was I'd raise the board as I approached the ramp and the pendant would get very tight. Figured that meant it was all the way up, but later found otherwise. I suspect the pendant was getting caught/jammed on something, possibly the zincs (not all PCs have them). The fix was, if I felt the pendant tightening, I'd drop the board back down a bit and try again. The pendant shouldn't get tight until you hear the board hit the top of the trunk with a loud thunk. No problem since.
Folks,
So ends my search. photo of "Patxaran", a Spanish Basque potent, sloe berry favored liquor, is below.
Unfortunately, she will be renamed, per admiral's requirements, and according to renaming ritual.
Bruce, thanks for the centerboard info. Great stuff there.
Regards,
Brian
I forgot to list options:
Boat and sail cover (red)
Transom ladder
Lifting bridle and factory installed lift points , these are 2 Of the same stainless bow eyes used to attach the Forestay.
Floatation bags, (6)
Flow max ball scuppers-installed by previous owner (PO)
Fixed motor mount
Magic tilt trailer
2 hp Honda short shaft
Equipment:
(2) mushroom anchors- stored forward for weight balance. PO thought more functional than sandbag.
All lines, several bumpers, step ladder, telescoping paddle,
This season to do list:
Add tiller tamer or clutch
Change locker hooks to locking one
Replace battens
Monitor sail track on mast, like others, this was slightly opened when boom and gaff not properly stowed when mast was folded. PO rationalized that this made putting sail on easier, so need to keep eye on it.
Mount existing Torqeedo 503. Extra battery stored in bow locker.
Future changes:
May need adjustable motor mount.
May replace red stripe...when time to replace boat/sail covers
Looks sweet!
I've got first hand experience with a TillerClutch. The installation of the control line is much more critical than they suggest. Useful, but the boat is so sensitive to weight distribution, if you move around, like go to the mast, the boat can veer off regardless of what the tiller is telling it to do.
A friend's PC had a seriously spread mast track at the hinge. About 3/4", bent up, but no tears or splits. Every time they raised or lowered the sail the slugs and/or gooseneck would fall out. I was able to close the spread with some judicious reforming with a small, plastic dead blow hammer. Works fine now. Com-Pac sells SS bars to install over track damage. May be necessary in some cases, but not the ones I've seen.
I helped set up a Torqeedo 1003 on a PC. The tiller is a problem, especially with a fixed motor mount. But, if the tiller can be left off, as it can with the 1003, then it should be doable. For the 1003, Torqeedo sells a remote throttle with all the controls that sits in the cockpit and is cabled to the motor. Or, again with the 1003, you can get extension cables that would attach the tiller, sitting in the cockpit, to the motor. Not quite as elegant as the remote throttle, but cheaper. Both may be available for the 503 as well. The adjustable motor mount has a couple of issues on it's own.
Draw latches are definitely better than the hooks Com-Pac uses.
Let me know if you want more info.
Brian,
I get complaints from perfect strangers about my boat "storage Yard" too many boats, too little time. I feel your pain.
They sound like imperfect strangers to me!!
Boat floats, had out in Manasquan Reservoir last weekend. Managed to sort rigging out and raised mast and gaff correctly. I think it took 4 mast raisings, and one scary point where gaff was stuck above my head at brain injury trajectory. Lesson learned, do not raise gaff without sail. There is no way to pull it down without pulling on sail. Torqeedo fit OK, but need to remove throttle handle when motor tilted up. This is project for 2019.
Bending on mainsail today, after applying some white lithium grease to sail track.
Trailor bunks in, but am changing boat accents from red to forest green. it's an Irish thing, and matching tape, NJ registration and name all on order for next weekend application. So bunks go on after new stripe. The red boat cover is staying, as too expensive to replace and is in good shape. So may have new Christmas decoration in driveway...
That said, Let me know if anyone is looking for a red picnic cat boat and sail cover, both in really good shape (3 years old).
All good.
Sounds good, Brian, enjoy your new boat!
Com-Pac ships the PC with the sail bent on, and most, including me, never remove it except for maintenance. For high speed trailering, wrap the sail bundle tight with line or stretch wrap.
You mentioned that your mast track was spread a bit, and easy fix. If you do need to remove the sail, with the track back in spec, just remove the two hinge pivots.
Grease is good, but if you have binding there are known issues. When dousing, having to tug on the luff is common, but it should slide relatively freely.
Here's the extension cable that connects the tiller to the motor, so you can leave the tiller loose in the cockpit all the time and still control the motor, except for steering of course ;). They also have a remote throttle, for more bucks.
https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/accessories/cables-and-steering/throttle-extension-cable-5-ft/1921-00.html
I'll mention the red covers on the Yahoo list. I'll let you know of any interest.
Bruce
Had very successful first sail, with Marty at helm, during the Barnegate Bay Bash. Wind was around 10 mph, so near perfect conditions.
Started out reefed, and shook them out after about an hour. I know now that I need to repair sail slug track, as this was a bit awkward to hand feed past bent section.
Boat handelled 2 ft bay swells well, and was solid and comfortable though all points. Large boat wakes stopped forward momentum, but presented no other concerns.
I did hit Marty with boom during first sail hoist when boom popped out of gallows too soon. Learned to pay more attention in future. Learned Marty has thick head bone.
Decided tiller clutch is needed. I have one and will mount before next sail. Bungee was not practable.
Torqeedo 503 short shaft motor did well, but need to try to raise to get lower prop unit completely out of water when sailing. May look at changing fixed motor mount to one that raises.
Had renaming ceremony, Krakon rum was shared with Neptune, and new name coming soon...
Added small plow anchor, rode and anchor are kept in soft igloo cooler with extra padding on bottom in forward hatch. Did not deploy,but happy with organized result. Whole cooler bag comes out of hatch when deploying anchor. Spare Torqeedo battery fits it same compartment, and weight forward is a key.
Next stop- shrewsbury and navesink rivers in Monmouth county, nj. Need to show wife where I learned to sail.
Great write up and a wonderful little ship! I really like it and was honored to help preside over the renaming ceremony! Many fine hours for you and your wife aboard this intrepid vessel! And no slouch, either!!
(https://i.imgur.com/Bza4Xav.jpg)
So.....think you can put oars on that baby?
Pretty sure, but Mary is a bit thin in the beam for corfartable rowing. If you mean the boat, on list for next season projects already. Need to measure oar length, and where to store them.
For yucks, I did run John Harris's formula (CLC), that takes into account the ample freeboard, I see 11'. Not that storing them will be the biggest issue. The sheet, boom, and sail will be in your face.
http://www.sailflyingcloud.com/Downloads/Geometry%20of%20Rowing.PDF
I did know a FL sailor who converted his PC for fishing in the summer when it was always too hot to sail. He took the mast off at the hinge, and used oars as auxiliary power, in case his OB failed. He converted back for the winter. Sculling the PC is easier.