I have an 86 Compac 23 and 18 months ago put a new HOnda 8hp 4 stroke electric start auto tilt motor on. I have babied this engine and the gas for it. Gas is always fresh and there is a water separator and another fuel filter in the fuel line. Did all the maintenance required in the manual. Way more than any other motor I have owned. I am in Lee County Florida, outside Ft Myers and so I know the sun can create problems with fuel baking. I run the gas out of it every time I stop it.
I have had LOTS of trouble starting the motor since I owned it - towed twice. The mechanic from the dealer came out after it wouldnt start the first time - it always turns over fine and is getting fuel and sparks are firing. He found it was stuck float valve. A few hours after he left it wouldnt start and the next two times I had to bang on the carburetor with a hammer to loosen the valve and get it started. He had sprayed carb cleaner in it. I would call that a problem with the float valve but the dealer wont. I am not talking to them anymore and HOnda requires you talk to the dealer first so you can guess what I think of the HOnda organization.
It did run ok for several months last spring but when we went to take it out of the water last spring - had to get the boat towed from our dock. I put the motor to bed for the summer away very carefully and completely. I tried spraying carb cleaner and starting it when we just got back - didnt work.
The dealer has been very uncooperative(using a much nicer term than I could) - they say its not warranty - its something I am doing to clog the carburetor. I have an independent mechanic coming tomorrow and he says these small motors clog up so easily that the only answer is run it - every day if possible. We will see what he finds but I have owned about 6 outboards and all the other lawnmower mowers etc over the years - none in Florida though - and never had ANY troubles like this. And before this engine, I barely knew any maintenance to do and barely did any.
At this point I am at wits end and ready to decide this motor is a lemon and just sell it and get a different one. I doubt I will be able to clean the carb much at all myself especially once the boat is in the water or out cruising. Its kept at a dock in my community. On the 23 there is no room for a motor handle so I think I really need electric start and ideally I would like to continue with auto tilt - my wife and I are aging. I have a friend with a Suzuki 6 on a little bit smaller boat - I wonder if 6 hp is enough for the 23.
I also hear that there are no fuel injected motors in this size range? The boat had an old evinrude 9.9 when I got it but it failed to start alot too. I also would love to stick with an 8hp or 6 to keep weight down in the stern. The boat squats and has weather helm in higher winds despite all methods to lessen that. I just ease the main now..
Any and all suggestions/comments welcome of course!! What are people using on these boats?
Thank-you
Hey there!
I own a 1985 23 and am using a Tohatsu 6hp Sailpro. I've had no problems although I always use premium fuel with an ethanol treatment. I will say it rarely starts on the first pull like my old Nissan 8 hp 2 cylinder 2 stroke but the Tohatsu actually pushes the boat faster. It's an extra long shaft (25")
Although the mine sheet tries to interfere with the pull start, it really isn't a big problem. How far to you need to motor? Maybe an electric Torqueedo would be best for you, old guy!! :) Like I should talk! Finbar here (CP19) uses a Torqueedo and loves it. He has extra battery packs and sails up here in windy NJ and we deal with tidal movement as well.
I don't run my motor dry each time I use it...something about that I don't like.
Your Honda dealer sounds like a jerk, period. Needs to take customer service course 101!!
As much as I admire my Torqeedo 1003, I think it is a little underpowered for the weight and windage of the CP-23.
Bob- sounds like an experiment for next season, if you are willing.
The 1003 is 3hp-ish, and recommended for boats less than 2,000 lbs. there is now a 8hp (cruise 4.0) but it has a mighty price tag of 4K...and that does not include battery.
Ok...I retract my recommendation. I didn't realize the limitation of the motor. 4 g's?? Plus battery? I'll row my 23 before I shell out that kind of moolah!
Sure Brian, we should try it on my 23. What's the worst that could happen, we could spill our beer??
The worse would be we drop one or both engines into the bay, Kevin captures it on video, then we spill our beers...
Ok....time to not think worst case scenario...let's talk about best case! No motors or beer spilled, successful test and we both win the Nobel Peace Prize!
Thanks to both of you - its good to hear that Tohatso 6hp would be enough power. I rarely motor more than a half hour down here. So thats a 4 stroke? And you two sound like my kind of sailors.
I assume you are both familiar with Barnegat Inlet? I should tell you the whole story sometime of delivering my 30' Stiletto catamaran down to the Chesapeake from LI Sound - and we got to the inlet late in the day and things looked really bad - BUT - my dizzy navigator kept reading to me about another inlet that was always nice and safe. To skip to the end, me and my crew of 2 were VERY lucky to survive that entry, especially when the fuel line clip fell off the motor right in the middle of it. You should have been there when we got in and I read the real entry in the cruising guide!!
Yes, 4 stroke. And yes, we probably are your kind but if you value your reputation, don't let that get around.
Very familiar with the inlet...I row it whenever I get a chance, which is not often enough because work is a monkey on my back!
This sounds like a good tale told over a Dark and Stormy or 2!
If you haven't tried it yet find ethanol free fuel and you may be pleasantly surprised. The small four stroke motors have very small jets and carb orifices as well as shut off valves they often are fouled by the ethanol. Don't know why they just are. Give it a try.
Tom L.
On the Suzuki 6hp - I have one. Started on one pull every time, idled smoothly, pushed the 23 just fine, but with less oomph than the Honda 8Hp it replaced, of course. Love having the internal gas tank, which is a great safety net. The motor is easy to handle and lightweight. Then one day it wouldn't start and left me drifting, probably my fault for leaving the gas in the tank too long. Having trouble getting performance back to 100%, hard to start now and always needs some choke to idle. My dealer is good and I'm optimistic we'll get it worked out. One other thing, the shaft length is ok as long as I'm in the stern, but could be longer. I'm using the standard Com-Pac tilt-down motor mount. Would I buy the Suzuki again? About 75% sure I would.
Tom, other than aviation gas, non ethanol is not available in NJ. I plan to smuggle some back on my next trip to Virginia! But you didn't hear me say that!!
Thanks again guys for the tips. I have only ever put non ethanol gas in this Honda. Some people say I should still put Stabil in that gas?. And I think I have the original motor bracket attached to the hull.
I must say when I learned that when starting, the gas only goes through the smallest carburetor hole I was aghast. Isnt that asking for lots of trouble? I am no engineer but if we are going to Mars I think we can do better than that.
Wow I am glad the boats not in today - we had gale force winds here from the front that is pounding NJ right now. Our docks are fine in a north wind but things get bad in a big south.....
Kip
FWIW...no affiliation but I would always put Startron (the blue stuff) in every outboard tank now. I have a Honda on another small boat and have had a lot of outboards over the years. The ethanol wreaks havoc as we know and the additive has kept me trouble free (knock on wood)
Sad to see a Honda with carb problems and a crappy dealer. They are usually bulletproof motors.
Sta-Bil works wonders as a fuel stabilizer and it keeps carbs clean. If it is a sticking float don't run the gas out, that allows any varnish to dry in the carb exacerbating that problem. If you can find Non-oxy (ethanol free) run it. If it's not available don't waste your money on any higher octane than recommended for your engine, ethanol is the enemy... Just Sta-Bil all gas you run in it. Have been using it in all my small engines for 20+ years and never had to clean a carb, even on seasonal stuff stored for 6 months a year.
Scott
Scott - thats amazing, your results. Although where I lived in Delaware and then New ENgland I never had to hardly touch ANY of my gas engines. It has to be the Florida sun.
To REPEAT - I have never put a DROP of ethanol gas in this motor - the marina with non ethanol is right around the corner. I also never let the tank sit in the sun or with much air in it and always close the air valve - thats how moisture can get in the tank....
My questions was ---- some people say to STILL put Stabil or other brands of stabilizer in this NON ETHANOL gas I use. Just wondering if that helps anything, if its not the ethanol causing the problem.
So these 6 hp motors like the Tohatsu - is there room for the control arm to go down all the way behind the transom, or can they be used partially up? I guess I should measure that distance given there is a different mount there now...
Kip,
Even with the non-oxy gas varnish can still accumulate and cause plugged jets and stuck floats. Especially if you store gas over a month, Sta-Bil or other good fuel stabilizer will combat that and keep the carb clean. And water can still accumulate if exposed to repeated heating cooling extremes and high humidity air. Keeping the vent closed and the tank full is the best way to avoid that. May want to try gas from another source to make sure there are no issues there.
I have a 6HP Nisan (same as Tohatsu) on my eclipse and the control arm does work partially up but not sure on clearance or operation issues on a 23.
I have a 6 hp sail pro four stroke. Mine is the Nissan badge but makes no difference the exact same model as the Tohatsu and made by them. I chose Nissan because that is the model they had on year end clearance at a discount.
It has been in service for three years. It has been perfect for three years. Starts on the second pull generally even if it has been sitting up for months.
Just recently I did a haulout refit on my boat and changed the oil in the motor and gearcase, cleaned all the dirt dauber nests out of the case. When I relaunched I started having trouble. Starts fine but runs a few minutes, then misses and stalls. Restarts fine, does the same thing.
During the period of time I had not had problems I never ran it dry, never disconnected the fuel line, kept the tank full of ethanol free gas with a spot of seafoam in there for good measure. I have to say during the haul out and for three months before it was neglected so a total of about six months without a start.
So, tomorrow, I'm going up to get it, bring it home, put a kit in the carb, dump the tank and start over, put on a new fuel line and bulb and see what happens. I can't lay blame on any root cause right now other than to say I'm fairly certain it is a fuel related problem.
will report back later when more is known.
So to Mr Someday with the Sailpro - it is hand pull start right? So there is room for the handle to be down straight between the motor and the transom? Thanks
Kip
Brackish, I have that motor in the Tohatsu 'hat'..when I bought the boat I was told there were motor issues, and it simply wouldn't stay running - wasn't able to cure its problem's until I kitted the carb AND blew air (actually starter fluid with the nozzle on the spray can) thru every small orifice I could find. Blew a few small green goop clots out..
Quote from: chimerakc on October 30, 2017, 04:13:24 PM
So to Mr Someday with the Sailpro - it is hand pull start right? So there is room for the handle to be down straight between the motor and the transom? Thanks
Kip
Yes hand pull easy to start. Handle? I assume you mean the tiller handle and can it be horizontal when the motor mount is lowered for operation. Well yes, but depends on your mount design and mounted position. On mine the motor is low enough to be in the water on the middle mount position, and the handle can be horizontal clearing the transom by a few inches. However if there is any chop or wave action I move the mount to the lowest position, immersing the shaft even further and the tiller is still almost horizontal but will rest on the transom deck. In either case it is easy to operate.
I routinely advise customers of these small outboards to have a spare carburetor; usually <$150 from eBay. Giving that advice actually helps my business (by referrals of larger, more feasible work) because 1) it's the truth; 2) I can't make any money cleaning small carbs for free; 3) people get mad about the cost of cleaning the small carb, and even then it can't be done well; and 4) we didn't create the problem, Washington did.
The truth is, yes, the EPA is so far up the tailpipe of these small outboards that the carburetors yes are super tight and also basically unserviceable, especially not compared to the cost of replacement and the value of a mechanic that knows what he's doing. It's not a lawnmower, period.
BUT, it is a carburetor designed to idle with a fuel:air ratio right at 3 gnats arses of fuel to one pregnant mosquito of air. And here, in hot and humid SE Louisiana (quite like hot and humid FL, but different too); we have New Orleans, and New Orleans has Bourbon Street. And so, as the story goes, if any one of the 3 gnats is drunk, hungover, been slipped a mickey, or found religion; well then his arse is either too heavy or not heavy enough. If the pregnant mosquito mated more than once, then she's off balance too. Either condition is true, the fuel:air ratio is shot, and the thing will run poorly if at all.
A LOT of mechanics and mechanics shops are getting grief for it, because it is a fuel/fuel quality/other issue; but the true cause originates in DC not the production plant.
Somebody please explain how my 1994 GMC 6.5L Diesel gets 20+ mpg, but the 2010 Dodge Cummins 6.7L (with all the emissions crap so it can't blow black soot NOR breathe) gets 12mpg. I get it, we're burning cleaner. But we're burning 2x as much decayed dinosaurs to do so...
Go electric. Let NUKES power, or recharge, your boat. Yep, Torqeedo is pricey. But so is your entire boating investment. And it's supposed to provide pleasure, not pain.
See my other post on home made LiFePO4 batteries that allow the existing capacity of a 180# 8D truck battery to be reduced to a 88# Group 27, with more energy...
Liking my Torqeedo more and more....
I routinely advise customers of these small outboards to have a spare carburetor; usually <$150 from eBay.
Exactly my plan. You can pop one off and put one on in about ten minutes. Carb in a sealed bag on the boat ready to go. Take the balky one home, clean and service at your leisure, then put it in the spare bag. Already done that with my 9.9, planning to do the same with my 6 hp sail pro.
Well I was starting to lose faith in my tried and true system for keeping these small four stroke outboard carbs operating properly. No, my system, which comprises of keeping every part of the fuel system constantly wet and full of non ethanol gasoline with a little Seafoam, is just fine. What took down my carb is a momentary lapse in judgement.
Even though I know that there are no folks here that would have such a lapse, I'll offer some advice anyway. When you are servicing your outboard and decide to remove the half dozen dirt dauber nests attached to it by brushing, vacuuming and blowing with compressed air, first put a piece of masking tape over your air intake. My carb was clogged with dirt dauber dust from this cleaning operation. Ten minutes to remove, 30 minutes to take it apart and clean it, ten minutes back on and it runs like a top.
Chimerakc - had a Tohatsu 6 SailPro on my trimaran for several years. It was generally reliable and had no problem starting. I always use non-ethanol after I witnessed what it does to carbs with aluminum bowls. Here in Florida I have found that many Marathon stations carry it. There is a Sunoco station at Burnt Store and 41 in south Punta Gorda which is the least expensive. Try this list for availability near you https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=FL
From what I have observed, the problem is that ethanol (like alcohol) absorbs moisture. Do you remember the gas antifreeze sold up North during the winter months? It absorbed the water in your gas tank and allowed it to mix with the gas instead pooling and freezing in your gas line. Well the ethanol seems to do the same and of course here in Florida we have high humidity in the summer which means a good chance of moisture in your gas. I have seen a light brown powder residue left in the bowl which I am confident was corrosion and had clogged the idle jet. I may be wrong about this, but following my intuition, I've not had any more problem. Of course your problem may be something related to the motor.
Back to the Tohatsu. The SailPro I had was 25" and had an extended tiller with the shift lever mounted near the throttle grip. What I didn't like was that it was noisy and vibrated a lot. That's a problem with most single cylinder outboards but especially true with the Tohatsu.
I haven't owned a Honda portable but have never heard any serious complaints about them. I love the Yamaha 9.9 thrust but it is heavy. It would be a shame for you to sell your Honda if there is a problem that can be corrected. If it is still in warranty try a different dealer.
It would be a shame for you to sell your Honda if there is a problem that can be corrected. If it is still in warranty try a different dealer.
I agree. Going back and reading your original post, your intermittent problems seem to be related to a sticking float valve. Often that has nothing to do with the gunk in the fuel, it may be a float that is leaking or a valve that is not quite right for the seat. A float valve kit should be inexpensive and is really easy to change. Think I would make that investment before I change the motor.
I just changed the float valve in my sail pro. Didn't need it but I had purchased it "just in case" so changed it because I had it. It took about 45 minutes which included cleaning the whole carb.
Mudlark came with a '97 2 stroke Evinrude with shift and throttle controls in the cockpit installed by the previous owner. The controls are extremely convenient, especially when I need to motor to my mooring. The Evinrude has two cylinders and vibration is minimal. It starts with one or two pulls and I've never had carb issues.
Not sure what I'd do for a replacement as I'm pretty sure I'd have to move up yo a heavier 9.9 to continue with having remote controls. Good reason to take good care of the Evinrude!
Nice thing about the two strokes is that it seems the oil in the gas mitigated those fuel problems we keep experiencing. I must admit, the several 2 cylinder two stroke outboards I've owned served me very well. Maintenance consisted of carrying a spare spark plug.
Ok - thanks for all the additional replies. I had a local mechanic came and he cleaned the carb. It was quite tricky to remove. I will never try that. All we could see was a little gunk in the bottom of the bowl, but he thought the float valve had been stuck. Its good to have now seen the guts of this carb and know whats what. I would have paid triple what he charged for the carb to get his advice on other things.
He prefers Seafoam in the gas even though its always non ethanol. But I had rarely been adding anything so will start. He said dont run fuel out of the motor when done - which I hated doing anyway. That makes sense to me now - there is always some gas left and then tons of air to create havoc. I now know how to use starter fluid and I believe as things barely start to clog or stick doing that can shake things loose and keep things running? HOpefully. I read so much both ways on starter fluid pros and cons online I had been a deer in the headlights.
I still worry - my motor is covered but that fuel hose just bakes - should I make a cover for that? And I will try to keep the 3 gallon gas tank even fuller than I had been.
So my hope is restored - he was a trained Mercury mechanic way back when and is very high on Hondas. We also figured out the manual has some errors in even more places than I had already found.
I will toss out one more thing he said - replace the marine batteries after 3 years. I can tell one of them loses power fast so I will probably do that one.
Thanks again for all the replies and info!!
I use a product call EZ Zorb to combat Ethanol problems. A marina owner turned me onto it. I never have had a fuel issue to date. And...I always remember to shut the gas tank vent at the end of the day. Helps keep some of the moisture in the air out.
Just my 2 cents...keep the change, mates!!
Happy to hear it's up and running. Now you can replace that headache with some sailing time. Enjoy
I'll pass on one bit of outboard advice. My SunCat came with a 2001 Honda 5 hp 4-stroke. I should add that I'm not much of an internal-combustion mechanic. When my motor quit last year, I took it to marine service place, where they somewhere sourced up a replacement carb and changed it out. The problem was that the delicate little mechanism for the choke had broken. As I left the place with my motor, I asked the mechanic if he had any general advice for me and he replied, "Yes, be less manly with the choke."
Batteries.
3 years.
Can't argue with that, but some go 5 or 7 years.
Battery.
Can argue there.
It's an electrical SYSTEM. Never ever replace one battery unless it's the only battery. If you have a pair, a weak one will drag down a strong one. A 3 year old one and a new one will quickly both behave as a 3 year old one unless kept isolated. In which case it's no longer a system.
I'll add some comments for the next person doing research;
I recommend K100, available from NAPA, to combat ethanol issues and stabilize gas for storage.
In the event that you might not know, stabil, and most other additives, are good for two years from the time you open it, not from the time you add it to gasoline.
For those looking for non-ethanol, pure-gas.org has a searchable database (user-updated.) If there is no place close, you can mix ethanol gasoline with fresh water, and the ethanol will transfer from the gasoline into the water, at which point you can separate the water/ethanol suspension and have non-ethanol gas. This is the most cost effective method of procuring non-ethanol these days.
Safe bets are gas stations near race tracks, municipal airports, and some marinas.
Regarding outboard choices, there is a minimal weight difference (2 pounds) between the 4/5/6hp model Tohatsus. The sailpro models add a charging kit and a special pitched prop, but preclude the addition of an internal tank. If you don't need the "extra long" version of the sailpro, the best bet the way I can figure is to buy the regular MFS6CDL with the integral tank, and then add the charging kit and the sailpro prop. This would give you the option of not carrying a gas can during shorter day cruises or carrying the external for extended trips, plus the charging and the prop pitch.
If I were in the market I would buy a Tohatsu Sail Pro made for propane. It was not available when I got my gas model. Only about a hundred bucks more than the gasoline model, it should eliminate all the problems with the little carbs. And the problems do not come from just fuel choice, I've never used anything but non ethanol in mine and changed out any tank that got over 6 months old. Mine still got clogged recently from that very fine dust that dirt daubers make when they nest under the cowl. Took two cleanings to get it right again. Caused the cancellation of a cruise.
The Sail Pro propane model produces 5 hp with the 6 hp displacement gasoline model cylinder. The head is different and they supply the mixer and safety shutoff equipment. All the other parts are stock Sail Pro. The HP reduction probably comes from the BTU difference in the fuels. Supposedly will run for 5 hours at WOT with an 11 lb. cylinder which will fit the fuel locker easily.
If you plan to motor hundreds of hours a year, the difference in the fuel price will be a factor. I use about 5 gallons of gas a year so the $15 or so a year I would have to spend for reliability is well worth it.
You could consider a Lehr, however they do not have the dealer and service network that Tohatsu/Nissan has. They are also considered by some to be of questionable quality. I have no personal experience with them, but my Sail Pro has been totally reliable with the exception of the delicate carb.
Where you cruise is equally important, as propane is not as readily available as gas in some places.